15” Woofer choices

[VDS]

Hi,

With more experience with active XO controlling my 402 MEH I’m learning more about Frequecy related to musical instruments.  The realization that 1/2 the piano, a lot of the cello, all the bass, etc are within my 600 hz woofer cut off, I’m understanding a great deal of “musicality” is coming from this driver, not just the “thump”.

 

So I’m researching if a woofer upgrade would make a difference in articulation and subtlety.

 

Wondering about Acoustic Elegance and if anybody has tried them and if the extra $ gets you better clarity, articulation, separation?
Or if any other brands/models have created an improvement for people.

 

currently using Eminence Kappa 15a powered by PS Audio m700 class D amp.

thanks for any experience you can share.

[VDS]

I seen a lot of comparisons on the forum between Eminence, Crites, and Klipsch woofers, but extremely little on any other brands. Also lots of discussions on how to get lower frequencies, but not so much about articulation, speed or tone.

Thanks

[Edgar]

I have a friend who uses several AE woofers (don't remember which model -- Dipole15 comes to mind) in an open baffle, and swears by them.

 

The Crites and current Klipsch woofers are made by Eminence. Eminence may not be perceived as an exotic brand, but it's hard to disagree with their results.

 

For articulation, speed, and tone, there is a huge following of Altec Lansing 416 and 515 16" woofers, now made by Great Plains Audio. But you'll pay through the nose for them.

[StevePaul]

On 1/29/2022 at 5:21 PM, VDS said:

I seen a lot of comparisons on the forum between Eminence, Crites, and Klipsch woofers, but extremely little on any other brands. Also lots of discussions on how to get lower frequencies, but not so much about articulation, speed or tone.

Thanks

The answer is (as with everything else) a definite "maybe they will make a difference".  The very low inductance of the Acoustic Elegance woofers voice coils comes into to play, the higher in frequency your design expects out of the woofer.  I ran the numbers on the AE TD15M-4 ($459-$599) as a possible replacement for the K48 in my Chorus II (if they ever give out), compared to the FaitalPro 15PR400-4, for about 50% of the price ($271) of the AE ...which also has a voice coil with vary low inductance. 

 

For example, the TD15M-4 has an Le of .20mH.  The 15PR400-4 has an Le of .60mH.  The K48 has an Le of 1.00mH.  

 

Below 300hz...the difference in the freq curve (when Le is taken into account) is very little.  The F3 is about the same and the SPL at 300hz is close.  But, at 300-400hz and higher, the low Le of the AE begins to have a telling affect.  Below is a little chart I ran using Unibox (I like this little program).  Notice how the higher in frequency the woofer goes, the more the Le rolls off the SPL's.  At 400hz the K48 is starting to roll off the higher it goes, while the AE SPL's are staying the same.  Where that comes into play is when your woofer meets a Mid/Tweet at between 400-800hz.  The AE will have a minimum SPL 3-4db greater SPL in this region (all other things being equal) compared to the K48 with the higher VC inductance...which makes mating the woofers and tweeter with crossovers 'maybe' easier.  I think it can be said that the frequencies between 300hz and 800hz will have more 'presence' than with the K48 in the Chorus II.

 

I would imagine that at 300-400hz and below, box tuning can mitigate any frequency related differences between the woofers.  Distortion figures are probably lower in the AE and FaitalPro, but whether or not it could be heard in the 50hz-350hz region is debatable.  I have reviewed every Eminence woofer that might replace the K48 and none of them (on paper) are the equal of the TD15M-4 or 15PR400-4 (or K48)....although at 50% to 75% cheaper, the Eminence woofers are the obvious better value.  

 

If you have the cash and are crossing over above 400hz, as a direct radiator, the AE TD15M-4 and the FaitalPro 15PR400-4 are just plain hard to beat.  Neither of them bests the K48 in the lower regions below 100hz.  The K48 is a beast down there.  If I had the money, I would purchase the AE TD15M-4 (but I don't).  In the future, I will most likely purchase the FaitalPro 15PR400-4.   FWIW....these are some facts and figures, with my added in opinions.  I could be all wet, but I don't think so.  YMMV>

 

100.4	101.3	98.2	2.83V
96.8	97.6	95.5	1W1M
1	1	1		# of Woofers
2	2	2		No. of Ports
4	4	4		Port Diam
4.1	4.1	8.00		Port Length
120	120	140		Vb
47	48	35		Fb
46	49	43		F3
0.73	0.82	0.98		Peak db
77	83	117		Peak at hz
95.4	95	94		SPL @ 50hz
97.0	98	96.2		SPL @ 200hz
96.8	97.8	95		SPL @ 400hz
FaitalPro	AE	Klipsch
15PR400-4	TD15M-4	K48

 

 

 

[StevePaul]

1 minute ago, StevePaul said:

The answer is (as with everything else) a definite "maybe they will make a difference".  The very low inductance of the Acoustic Elegance woofers voice coils comes into to play, the higher in frequency your design expects out of the woofer.  I ran the numbers on the AE TD15M-4 ($459-$599) as a possible replacement for the K48 in my Chorus II (if they ever give out), compared to the FaitalPro 15PR400-4, for about 50% of the price ($271) of the AE ...which also has a voice coil with vary low inductance. 

 

For example, the TD15M-4 has an Le of .20mH.  The 15PR400-4 has an Le of .60mH.  The K48 has an Le of 1.00mH.  

 

Below 300hz...the difference in the freq curve (when Le is taken into account) is very little.  The F3 is about the same and the SPL at 300hz is close.  But, at 300-400hz and higher, the low Le of the AE begins to have a telling affect.  Below is a little chart I ran using Unibox (I like this little program).  Notice how the higher in frequency the woofer goes, the more the Le rolls off the SPL's.  At 400hz the K48 is starting to roll off the higher it goes, while the AE SPL's are staying the same.  Where that comes into play is when your woofer meets a Mid/Tweet at between 400-800hz.  The AE will have a minimum SPL 3-4db greater SPL in this region (all other things being equal) compared to the K48 with the higher VC inductance...which makes mating the woofers and tweeter with crossovers 'maybe' easier.  I think it can be said that the frequencies between 300hz and 800hz will have more 'presence' than with the K48 in the Chorus II.

 

I would imagine that at 300-400hz and below, box tuning can mitigate any frequency related differences between the woofers.  Distortion figures are probably lower in the AE and FaitalPro, but whether or not it could be heard in the 50hz-350hz region is debatable.  I have reviewed every Eminence woofer that might replace the K48 and none of them (on paper) are the equal of the TD15M-4 or 15PR400-4 (or K48)....although at 50% to 75% cheaper, the Eminence woofers are the obvious better value.  

 

If you have the cash and are crossing over above 400hz, as a direct radiator, the AE TD15M-4 and the FaitalPro 15PR400-4 are just plain hard to beat.  Neither of them bests the K48 in the lower regions below 100hz.  The K48 is a beast down there.  If I had the money, I would purchase the AE TD15M-4 (but I don't).  In the future, I will most likely purchase the FaitalPro 15PR400-4.   FWIW....these are some facts and figures, with my added in opinions.  I could be all wet, but I don't think so.  YMMV>

 

100.4	101.3	98.2	2.83V
96.8	97.6	95.5	1W1M
1	1	1		# of Woofers
2	2	2		No. of Ports
4	4	4		Port Diam
4.1	4.1	8.00		Port Length
120	120	140		Vb
47	48	35		Fb
46	49	43		F3
0.73	0.82	0.98		Peak db
77	83	117		Peak at hz
95.4	95	94		SPL @ 50hz
97.0	98	96.2		SPL @ 200hz
96.8	97.8	95		SPL @ 400hz
FaitalPro	AE	Klipsch
15PR400-4	TD15M-4	K48

 

 

 

A zobel network on the woofer could negate the higher Le of the Klipsch and Eminence woofers and mitigate the issue.  But, it makes me wonder if there is more going on with a better designed motor when a woofer's Le is well controlled and no zobel is requred on the woofer.  ie...maybe it's just a better performing woofer in the 400-800hz region.  

[Edgar]

Don't forget that the narrowing polar response of a 15" direct radiator comes into play around 500-600 Hz. So the rolloff due to VC inductance is at least partially compensated on-axis by the polar response.

[VDS]

16 hours ago, StevePaul said:

The answer is (as with everything else) a definite "maybe they will make a difference".  The very low inductance of the Acoustic Elegance woofers voice coils comes into to play, the higher in frequency your design expects out of the woofer.  I ran the numbers on the AE TD15M-4 ($459-$599) as a possible replacement for the K48 in my Chorus II (if they ever give out), compared to the FaitalPro 15PR400-4, for about 50% of the price ($271) of the AE ...which also has a voice coil with vary low inductance. 

 

For example, the TD15M-4 has an Le of .20mH.  The 15PR400-4 has an Le of .60mH.  The K48 has an Le of 1.00mH.  

 

Below 300hz...the difference in the freq curve (when Le is taken into account) is very little.  The F3 is about the same and the SPL at 300hz is close.  But, at 300-400hz and higher, the low Le of the AE begins to have a telling affect.  Below is a little chart I ran using Unibox (I like this little program).  Notice how the higher in frequency the woofer goes, the more the Le rolls off the SPL's.  At 400hz the K48 is starting to roll off the higher it goes, while the AE SPL's are staying the same.  Where that comes into play is when your woofer meets a Mid/Tweet at between 400-800hz.  The AE will have a minimum SPL 3-4db greater SPL in this region (all other things being equal) compared to the K48 with the higher VC inductance...which makes mating the woofers and tweeter with crossovers 'maybe' easier.  I think it can be said that the frequencies between 300hz and 800hz will have more 'presence' than with the K48 in the Chorus II.

 

I would imagine that at 300-400hz and below, box tuning can mitigate any frequency related differences between the woofers.  Distortion figures are probably lower in the AE and FaitalPro, but whether or not it could be heard in the 50hz-350hz region is debatable.  I have reviewed every Eminence woofer that might replace the K48 and none of them (on paper) are the equal of the TD15M-4 or 15PR400-4 (or K48)....although at 50% to 75% cheaper, the Eminence woofers are the obvious better value.  

 

If you have the cash and are crossing over above 400hz, as a direct radiator, the AE TD15M-4 and the FaitalPro 15PR400-4 are just plain hard to beat.  Neither of them bests the K48 in the lower regions below 100hz.  The K48 is a beast down there.  If I had the money, I would purchase the AE TD15M-4 (but I don't).  In the future, I will most likely purchase the FaitalPro 15PR400-4.   FWIW....these are some facts and figures, with my added in opinions.  I could be all wet, but I don't think so.  YMMV>

 

100.4	101.3	98.2	2.83V
96.8	97.6	95.5	1W1M
1	1	1		# of Woofers
2	2	2		No. of Ports
4	4	4		Port Diam
4.1	4.1	8.00		Port Length
120	120	140		Vb
47	48	35		Fb
46	49	43		F3
0.73	0.82	0.98		Peak db
77	83	117		Peak at hz
95.4	95	94		SPL @ 50hz
97.0	98	96.2		SPL @ 200hz
96.8	97.8	95		SPL @ 400hz
FaitalPro	AE	Klipsch
15PR400-4	TD15M-4	K48

 

 

 

I’m trying to digest this.  Im trying to listen to the lower frequencies and determine if the slight “muddyness” I hear is the drivers, room acoustics, or something else.  I have 6” absorbent bass traps in corners behind speakers, that helped.