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Should I try this $275 folded horn sub with my La Scala?


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Klipsch rates the La Scala’s frequency response as 45 Hz-17 kHz, -4 dB, which is a clear example of how buyers should not depend on specs when choosing a speaker. Other speakers may have better specs, without sounding nearly as good as La Scalas.  

 

As for whether you need a sub with them, it depends.  Some La Scala owners like them fine without a subwoofer, while I’m really happy with what my pair of subs do for the sound.  The difference may be that actual full-range music does include a certain thumping quality from the kick drum and the bass guitar that some listeners find tiresome.  However, there are subs and there are subs.  Some only go down to 25-30 Hz, which includes little of that thumping effect.  The more expensive subs that go below 20 Hz or so can be more than some folks enjoy, and that’s a fair opinion.

 

My receiver can disable the subs at the push of a button, so I do that for late-night listening, though to me it does make the music sound a bit thin.  I’ve measured the output from the La Scalas (the 1974 models, not the 2007 La Scala IIs), and they do start to roll off at around 100 Hz.  By 50Hz or so, the sound is pretty much gone.  

 

You can improve that performance a bit by positioning your Scalas in or close to corners, or at least close to the front wall (the wall behind the front speakers).  Quite a few hi-fi writers say that most speakers should be pulled out well into the room for best sound, but La Scalas are not most speakers.  Within 6” (or 15 cm) of the wall will give you the best and smoothest bass, with the fewest peaks and dips.  If your speakers are toed-in, as they should be, measure that distance from the corner of the speaker that’s closest to the wall.

 

Keep in mind that just as speakers don’t have a sharp cutoff at the bottom of their response curve, subs don’t have a sharp cutoff at the top of their range either.  Therefore, I reason that setting the sub to “stop” where the speaker “stops” will cause a dip in the handover zone, so I overlap the settings, setting the sub at 120 Hz.  

 

Of course, not all rooms are the same, La Scalas vary a bit, and subwoofers vary a lot, so don’t treat these suggestions as absolute rules.  See them as guidelines or starting points.  Once you have your La Scalas in your room, powered by your electronics, you’ll have some idea of what kind of subwoofage you need.  

 

Also, it’s best to try a sub before you buy it, in case it turns out to be not quite what you want to listen to every day for years.  When I bought my first sub, used, it was on a Friday, and the dealer told me, “Come back next week with the sub or the money.”  I came back with the money, and I happily listened to it for 15 years, before I gifted it to a relative whose sub had died.  One of my new subs had already arrived, so I was never without, and he was very happy with his new-to-him sub, which was an upgrade over the one he’d had.  Smiles all around!

 

Naturally, I bought the new subs from that same dealer, who’s always been great to me.

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Receivers have what they call a loudness switch which increases the bass and treble at lower volume levels. The predominate sound difference I hear is the bass when using the loudness switch and one can do this with a sub as well. At least the ones with a volume control. Just increase the sub when listening at lower levels and you can do pretty much the same thing making the sound more enjoyable. Just another advantage of using a sub with LaScala's. 

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On 2/11/2022 at 2:35 AM, CoryGillmore said:

Wow really? What does Klipsch rate the FR at? Seems to me a sub is a must with LS. 

I suggest 80 Hz. because if you highpass the LS, it will lower distortion and let the Sub be difficult to point to. It's a compromise. I haven't owned LaScala for over 12 years, but I did curve Peavey bass bins in Corners, which is also a W bin. It cuts off at about 90 hz. since it's a little bit longer in the horn section with not straight portion, full horn expansion.

 

I had to boost that speaker by 10 db at 60 Hz. to get it to cross with my Monster Danley subs at about 40-60 Hz. Then I build my Quarter Pies (now owned by TromProf), which went flat to 50 without the "sealed resonance big doghourse in a tight open box" shenanigans, but a full 5 1/2 ft horn with a smaller back chamber vs. LaScala/Peavey 2.75/3.25 ft. horn. That's how you get an octave which requires less subbage for music, since it's a full OCTAVE of more real horn bass Quarter Pie Shape has it's own corner.

 

I don't believe the spec in a real room I've ever owned, so 80 is a good compromise on a LaScala.

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On 2/10/2022 at 12:58 PM, Dave MacKay said:

@ClaudeJ1, just trying to learn ...

 

If the La Scala starts to drop off at 104 Hz, why wouldn't one want to set the cross-over around there (100 Hz - 110 Hz) while running the La Scala "full out" (without a high pass filter)? Not knowing any better, it would seem to me that doing so would let the sub would fill in from where the LS weakens. 

 

Experiment!  These suggestions aren’t cast in stone, they’re starting points or guidelines to get you in the ballpark, then you tweak to taste, to make your speakers in your room give your ears what sounds most realistic and pleasant to them.  Keep in mind that sometimes one or the other may call for slightly different settings, so that may call for some compromise.  While our speakers and electronics and so on can have their performance precisely measured, so it’s hard science, our ears are soft and in some cases a bit floppy, and our squishy brains are all individual, so one sound or one flavour won’t please everyone.  It can’t.

 

So, experiment.  Maybe get yourself a sound level meter, also called an SPL meter, a test CD or DVD, and maybe a frequency response app for your phone.  I’ve got a free one called Advanced Spectrum Analyzer, or something like that.  It’s informative, in that you can see what frequency ranges are actually used in various kinds of music.  Not much happens above 10 kHz, for example.

 

The SPL meter and test disc are especially helpful for dialling in your subwoofer so it integrates properly with your speakers, in your room, and may even help in finding the best location for the sub.  Get some paper and a ruler, or use a spreadsheet program.  Do a run from 200 Hz down to 10 Hz or whatever your test disc goes down to.  You don’t need to use high volume for this.  65-70 dB is loud enough, unless you want to integrate the sounds of rattling windows into the overall sounds.

 

 When I first got my 400-watt sub and was trying it in various locations in the living room, I accidentally found a spot under the picture window that would let the sub cause the windowpane to THRUM!!! really loudly, loudly enough to give me an instant headache.  The location seemed like it should work, since it faced a long corridor, so there should be enough room for those 40-foot-long 20 Hz sound waves, right?  Maybe, but that noise was too much, so the sub got shifted out of there right away.  I still don’t know how headphones can produce very deep bass notes, when there isn’t any room for those long waves.  I’ll do a Google dive one day and find out.  That’s it for right now.  I’ve gotta get myself shifted right now.

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On 2/11/2022 at 8:55 AM, Islander said:

You can improve that performance a bit by positioning your Scalas in or close to corners, or at least close to the front wall (the wall behind the front speakers).  Quite a few hi-fi writers say that most speakers should be pulled out well into the room for best sound, but La Scalas are not most speakers.

I feel exactly the same about Cornwalls. I tell folks all the time "don't neglect the wall part of the Cornwall name" haha. Mine are 2" from the front wall at their closest point. 

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On 2/11/2022 at 9:55 AM, Islander said:

Some only go down to 25-30 Hz, which includes little of that thumping effect.

It's more of a "thumping effect" when you add CHEAP bass reflex subs, but when you are talking about a HORN SUB like he just bought, it's just as FAST and CLEAN as the LaScala. I've had some "big 18" Super Drivers" in Big BR boxes before (sold to a good friend), which were OK for a while, but a HORN Sub has super low distortion at stupid loud outputs and is easier to SONICALLY marry to a pair of LaSCalas. Believe me, I have tried them all.

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On 2/11/2022 at 6:02 PM, Islander said:

there should be enough room for those 40-foot-long 20 Hz sound waves, right?

20 Hz. waves are 56.5 Feet long. The particular sub he got will likely produce a 40 foot wave, but that's 28 Hz.

 

This should give everyone a CLUE about how expensive an "diminishment of practical sonic returns" you get as you go lower and lower. IOW, it take a whole lot of effort to squeeze out that last bottom 10 hz. or so, which is rarely necessary for normal music listening (not Dubstep or Special effect in movies, like Canon Shots). But flat to 30 Hz. with a HORN, should still be able to scare animals!!!

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On 2/13/2022 at 6:16 AM, ClaudeJ1 said:

It's more of a "thumping effect" when you add CHEAP bass reflex subs, but when you are talking about a HORN SUB like he just bought, it's just as FAST and CLEAN as the LaScala. I've had some "big 18" Super Drivers" in Big BR boxes before (sold to a good friend), which were OK for a while, but a HORN Sub has super low distortion at stupid loud outputs and is easier to SONICALLY marry to a pair of LaSCalas. Believe me, I have tried them all.

 

You can also get a thumping effect when your speakers or subs are doing a good job of reproducing thumping music.  Maybe I’ve spent too much time right in front of the stack of speakers at one side of the stage, but on one occasion that I clearly remember, I had the sensation of being physically clubbed with a Nerf baseball bat with every kick of the bass drum.  It wasn’t fun.

 

And that was with a blues/rock band.  If it had been a heavy metal band, with that ever-popular double-speed drumming, I would have been gone after the first song.  I wouldn’t have even gone in, but you get the idea.  Sometimes fully realistic reproduction is more than some can tolerate, or can tolerate for an album or two, but not every day of the week, or maybe just one day a month, when an audio buddy comes over for a visit.  That may be why some La Scala fans prefer to listen to them without a sub.  A super realistic sound system can be a mixed blessing, and can lead one to prefer less hard-hitting music than that stuff you listened to when you were in your twenties.  As for that time with the clubbing kick drum, after about 30 minutes I relocated to the far end of the bar, but by then it was just too much for me, so I left.

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2 hours ago, Islander said:

A super realistic sound system can be a mixed blessing, and can lead one to prefer less hard-hitting music than that stuff you listened to when you were in your twenties.  As for that time with the clubbing kick drum, after about 30 minutes I relocated to the far end of the bar, but by then it was just too much for me, so I left.

Time for a PWK Bullshit button! Speaking of which, are we now, also falsely, calling LaScalas bass bins with a K510 on top "Underground JubeScalas? Asking for a friend.................LOL (more BS on my part this time).

 

We are talking strictly about HOME music reproduction. To avoid your negative experience (rightfully so), it's easy NOT to go to clubs or BUY music  sounds like that. A reference system should NOT have it's full range bass crippled as you suggest. The full range bass in recordings that contain it, is fully COMPLEMENTED by a a Subwoofer can sound incredibly engaging. Just ONLY buy good music to YOUR ears and avoid "thumpy bass" which only requires a 60 Hz. Peak (unless you have a Disco Music collection of the late 70's).

 

Bottom line: Don't screw up a good system for bad music! 

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On 2/16/2022 at 1:49 PM, ClaudeJ1 said:

Time for a PWK Bullshit button! Speaking of which, are we now, also falsely, calling LaScalas bass bins with a K510 on top "Underground JubeScalas? Asking for a friend.................LOL (more BS on my part this time).

 

We are talking strictly about HOME music reproduction. To avoid your negative experience (rightfully so), it's easy NOT to go to clubs or BUY music  sounds like that. A reference system should NOT have it's full range bass crippled as you suggest. The full range bass in recordings that contain it, is fully COMPLEMENTED by a a Subwoofer can sound incredibly engaging. Just ONLY buy good music to YOUR ears and avoid "thumpy bass" which only requires a 60 Hz. Peak (unless you have a Disco Music collection of the late 70's).

 

Bottom line: Don't screw up a good system for bad music! 

 

I though we had laid this disagreement to rest years ago, but no, apparently not.  In courtesy to your ongoing requests/whines, I've often referred to my main speakers as "modded bi-amped La Scala IIs with Jubilee tweeters", which should have proven acceptable to the self-appointed Klipsch Nomenclature Observer Boy, or KNOB for short.  It seems like you haven't even been observing that closely, since I've equipped my La Scala II bass bins with K402 horns since 2017 (with K-691 drivers since 2019), as you could see clearly indicated in my sig line below.  Those certainly are Jubilee tweeters.  Upgrading to the K-771 drivers (which I may do at some point) would even bring them up to 2022 specs.  I agree that your first paragraph was definitely BS.

 

As for your second paragraph, I would quote Drax the Destroyer, as portrayed by Dave Bautista:  "Nothing goes over my head.  I have very good reflexes."  Well, he was wrong, and so are you.  I agree with you that a reference system should NOT have its full range bass crippled, as you put it.  My point (the one that went over your head) was that for some listeners, the full bass range may be more than they find enjoyable.  Absolute accuracy and simulation of reality may take second place to enjoyable all-day listening.  Rather than giving up the music that they really like, they find it simpler to just turn off (or skip buying) subwoofers with the accurate and powerful output needed to keep up with the La Scala or La Scala II.

 

I'm not a member of that group, otherwise I wouldn't have upgraded my sub, and then bought a second matching one, but now that I have a genuine full-range system, I can understand how that might not be what every sincere music fan wants in his or her living room.  That's fine by me.  If your stereo makes you happy, it's doing what it was meant to do, regardless of what some purists/snobs might think.  You're not a snob, are you, Claude?  I thought you were a Klipsch fan who enjoys discussions with other Klipsch fans.  That's all it takes to be a member of this Forum, and the majority of Klipsch speakers are not full-range, yet they have millions of fans, which makes it affordable for Klipsch to produce the small numbers of high-performance speakers that you and I prefer.  Not only is there room for all kinds of Klipsch fans, there need to be lots of fans who will buy thousands and tens of thousands of lower-performance speakers.  Thus, we need all those fans, or the Heritage Series might have died out years ago.

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