Vintage vs new La Scalas

[blue360cuda]

Hey everyone!  I'm bringing some of my vintage gear out and getting it back up and running. Currently using a Marantz 2240 and Thornes 160 turntable. The missing link for me is speakers as my old no-names are shot. Question for those of you who have heard the new La Scalas and vintage ones, what do you think of them?  I have the opportunity to buy a set of 1978 La Scalas that have had the mid drivers and subs updated with new but the crossovers are original. They're located a couple hours away so wondering if you guys think its worth it or should I just save up for a while and bite the bullet on some new ones?  I'm all for tinkering and playing around with electronics so I thought it would be a fun project to rock the old school speakers; I also do some woodworking so new veneers wouldn't be a problem either.  Just don't feel like sinking $$$$ and hours into an old set if they wont even come close to how the new ones are with all the updates through the years.   Would greatly appreciate any feedback   Thanks!!!

[Rolox]

Modern Lascala have seen considerable improvement of their crossovers, aiming for smoother frequency response and better phase relationships between drivers. They also use a much better tweeter than the old K77, and the bass horns do not resonate as much due to thicker construction.

That's not to say you can't enjoy a vintage pair, with some mods, they can be fantastic, but unless you go "crazy" with updated networks and 2inch midrange horn and drivers, and better tweeters (and the woodworking to accept all those mods!!) a vintage pair will never have the edge IMHO. 

[Bubo]

10 hours ago, blue360cuda said:

 Question for those of you who have heard the new La Scalas and vintage ones, what do you think of them?  I have the opportunity to buy a set of 1978 La Scalas that have had the mid drivers and subs updated with new but the crossovers are original. They're located a couple hours away so wondering if you guys think its worth it or should I just save up for a while and bite the bullet on some new ones? 

The 78 LaScalas are great sounding speakers

They faithfully reproduce female voice and piano. The two most challenging sounds.

Probably need a recap, new mid horn gasket, replace dry rotted wires

 

Tinkering with crossovers may yield an audible difference, or not

Unless you listen at high volume, the existing cabinets are perfectly adequate without stiffing.

I have a sub connected, but rarely need it for the music I listen to.

 

10 hours ago, blue360cuda said:

 

I'm all for tinkering and playing around with electronics so I thought it would be a fun project to rock the old school speakers; I also do some woodworking so new veneers wouldn't be a problem either.  Just don't feel like sinking $$$$ and hours into an old set if they wont even come close to how the new ones are with all the updates through the years.   Would greatly appreciate any feedback   Thanks!!!

 

I would freshen up the old speakers, wait a couple of weeks

then put on a beautiful veneer

turn up the volume and sit back

 

Given the speaker's efficiency

experimenting with low output SS and tube amps might be inexpensive and fun.

People report good results with some of the tube cheapos.

 

If I were handed $1 million dollars for audio improvement

I would buy a larger living room with good acoustics

As to gear, some of the low output stuff to play with

And probably get a couple of bass bin pairs made

one LaScala and one Altec 820c set of cabinets

So I could play with horns and crossovers with 2 driver systems

rolling off at 17K, not sure I can still hear that high .........

 

If I had the room, a pair of giant low frequency horns

Altec or Klipsch theater models

"Subs...we don't need no stinking subs"

[Shakeydeal]

I agree with @Rolox

 

I heard a pair of 80s Lascalas a few years ago and thought they were pretty good, not great. Now this was in a friends system and not mine. I now own a pair of IIs and I am immensely happy with them. I know the AL5s are even better but I can’t justify the price of a new pair. But when the price comes down on the used market I’ll have them one day.

 

That said, if you can find an older pair in good shape at a good price, you should do it. The prices continue to climb and you probably won’t lose a penny when you decide to sell. And I’m sure you would enjoy them until you can find some newer ones.

[Tom05]

I’d pass on Lascala’s that have been tampered with , ( big red flag), the stock ones that the great PWK designed are hard to beat, As for the new vs old , I have no doubt that the Lascala II would measure better in the lab ,but the set that you prefer to listen to, that’s hard to say ,their both excellent.🤓

[KT88]

My 2 cents, I would enjoy the pleasure of the longer trip. Your Marantz should go very well with the 1978 Lascala. Even though I have more modern speakers, including Jubilees with TAD drivers, I have now enjoyed a full year of restoring my 1977 Lascalas to original condition as best I can. And as someone said, vintage speakers are going up in price and a Lascala II will always be offered in the years to come. It's a bit like MX5 (Miata in your country). A well maintained NA now costs more than a well maintained NC.

[Coytee]

First, I have to presume you know that the picture you've got posted is of the newer version, not the older version?

 

I've got a pair of 1979 LaScalas.

I've heard the newer  versions.  Do the newer versions sound better?  I'd say yes.  Do the newer versions sound like they have more/better bass?  I'd say yes to that too.

 

BUT....  (there is always a pesky but!)  Can you get your speakers sounding similar (or perhaps even better) than the newer version of LaScalas?  

 

I would say yes to that too.

To fix the bass (and make "yours") sound like they have the better bass....you simply have to stiffen up the side walls on the bass horn to tame their resonating.  Several ways to do this.  I think it is a clear and noticeable improvement in the sound.

 

You then reach a fork in the road.....  how crazy do you want to go?  If you want to now (or in the future) go balls out, you can biamp the speaker and slap a K402 on top.  If you did that with an active crossover, Roy has already EQ'ed the frequency that makes the sidewalls resonate, OUT of the program so that alone will help the over all sound (whether or not you firm up the sidewalls).

 

The 402 on top (with the speaker now being an actively biamped, 2-way speaker) will make your stock speaker sound more like a toy speaker.  I don't say that to be malicious.  I've owned a pair for a long time so I'm not bashing on them.

 

In fact, it was Bob Crites (RIP) who made that comment once when a group were comparing various speakers.  As I recall, he leaned back in his chair and in his charming way, just blurted out that these larger horns (K402 on top of LaScala, Jubilee, MWM) simply make all the other speakers sound like toy speakers.  I agreed with him 100%. 

 

Note, this isn't to disparage any others which sound good on their own right.  Just a matter of do you want to push the ball forward, or do you want to catapult it forward?  It's "simply" a matter of how much do you want to spend.  All the engineering has been done.

 

[jimjimbo]

Vintage 

[svberger]

6 hours ago, Rolox said:

Modern Lascala have seen considerable improvement of their crossovers, aiming for smoother frequency response and better phase relationships between drivers. They also use a much better tweeter than the old K77, and the bass horns do not resonate as much due to thicker construction.

That's not to say you can't enjoy a vintage pair, with some mods, they can be fantastic, but unless you go "crazy" with updated networks and 2inch midrange horn and drivers, and better tweeters (and the woodworking to accept all those mods!!) a vintage pair will never have the edge IMHO. 

The only "mods" I did to my highly enjoyable '77's was to disable the tweeter protection diodes which helps eliminate distortion and provided a pretty dramatic positive change,  and, removed the magnetic screw that's part of the  245 uH air core inductor in the left back of the crossover  that is part of the tweeter circuit.  Per Bob Crites "for some reason, at the factory, they sometimes used a regular steel screw in these inductors.  Should be a non-magnetic screw or the inductance will not be the specified 245 uH but instead will be around 350 uH.   You can check the screw with a magnet.  If it is attracted to a magnet, it is wrong and should be replaced." Thanks to @KT88 for alerting me to both of these useful tips. Other then that, had no need to do anything else. I've owned/listened to a lot of speakers over the last 50+ years and the LS's are right up there with the best of them. Driving mine with a McIntosh MC240 and I can listen all day long.

[paulgyro]

On 2/5/2022 at 9:12 AM, Coytee said:

First, I have to presume you know that the picture you've got posted is of the newer version, not the older version?

 

I've got a pair of 1979 LaScalas.

I've heard the newer  versions.  Do the newer versions sound better?  I'd say yes.  Do the newer versions sound like they have more/better bass?  I'd say yes to that too.

 

BUT....  (there is always a pesky but!)  Can you get your speakers sounding similar (or perhaps even better) than the newer version of LaScalas?  

 

I would say yes to that too.

To fix the bass (and make "yours") sound like they have the better bass....you simply have to stiffen up the side walls on the bass horn to tame their resonating.  Several ways to do this.  I think it is a clear and noticeable improvement in the sound.

 

You then reach a fork in the road.....  how crazy do you want to go?  If you want to now (or in the future) go balls out, you can biamp the speaker and slap a K402 on top.  If you did that with an active crossover, Roy has already EQ'ed the frequency that makes the sidewalls resonate, OUT of the program so that alone will help the over all sound (whether or not you firm up the sidewalls).

 

The 402 on top (with the speaker now being an actively biamped, 2-way speaker) will make your stock speaker sound more like a toy speaker.  I don't say that to be malicious.  I've owned a pair for a long time so I'm not bashing on them.

 

In fact, it was Bob Crites (RIP) who made that comment once when a group were comparing various speakers.  As I recall, he leaned back in his chair and in his charming way, just blurted out that these larger horns (K402 on top of LaScala, Jubilee, MWM) simply make all the other speakers sound like toy speakers.  I agreed with him 100%. 

 

Note, this isn't to disparage any others which sound good on their own right.  Just a matter of do you want to push the ball forward, or do you want to catapult it forward?  It's "simply" a matter of how much do you want to spend.  All the engineering has been done.

 

So you've got my attention, how do I get a K402 and where Roy's magical EQ to make this work with a La Scala amazing?

 

I'm thinking of buying an old 1981 La Scala and hot rodding it.

 

Paul 

[the real Duke Spinner]

On 2/5/2022 at 11:54 AM, svberger said:

The only "mods" I did to my highly enjoyable '77's was to disable the tweeter protection diodes which helps eliminate distortion and provided a pretty dramatic positive change,  and, removed the magnetic screw that's part of the  245 uH air core inductor in the left back of the crossover  that is part of the tweeter circuit.  Per Bob Crites "for some reason, at the factory, they sometimes used a regular steel screw in these inductors.  Should be a non-magnetic screw or the inductance will not be the specified 245 uH but instead will be around 350 uH.   You can check the screw with a magnet.  If it is attracted to a magnet, it is wrong and should be replaced." Thanks to @KT88 for alerting me to both of these useful tips. Other then that, had no need to do anything else. I've owned/listened to a lot of speakers over the last 50+ years and the LS's are right up there with the best of them. Driving mine with a McIntosh MC240 and I can listen all day long.

Thanks. Valuable posting. 🙂

[Marvel]

22 hours ago, paulgyro said:

On 2/5/2022 at 11:12 AM, Coytee said:

So you've got my attention, how do I get a K402 and where Roy's magical EQ to make this work with a La Scala amazing?

I believe you can still order the 402 horn and driver from klipsch.

[yamahaSHO]

I've got a set of 1978 La Scalas with Crites CT-120's, A-55-G's, and A-4500 crossovers and I've loved them.  I have a set of new Klipsch bass drivers to swap in when I refinish the speakers and I bought a new set of CSW-450 crossovers to try out as well. I have not heard the new version of the La Scalas, but I've not felt the need to look for a new speaker in my life... Not until I downsize. 

[paulgyro]

18 minutes ago, yamahaSHO said:

I've got a set of 1978 La Scalas with Crites CT-120's, A-55-G's, and A-4500 crossovers and I've loved them.  I have a set of new Klipsch bass drivers to swap in when I refinish the speakers and I bought a new set of CSW-450 crossovers to try out as well. I have not heard the new version of the La Scalas, but I've not felt the need to look for a new speaker in my life... Not until I downsize. 

Wow you sure have invested a lot into those old La Scalas!

[Coytee]

On 4/14/2023 at 11:44 PM, paulgyro said:

where Roy's magical EQ to make this work with a La Scala amazing?

 

 

Here it is.  Some comments though:

 

1.  It's an active so you'd need four channels of amplification

2. This is the original one he did and it presumes the original driver, K-69 (or was it the K-69-A?)

3.  If you use a different HF driver, you might likely have to adjust the settings on the crossover

4.  Note the PEQ: -7 db's @ 148 Hz, this will take most/all of the resonance of the bass bin out and they will sound like they're playing deeper bass.

5.  Forgot...  the attached PEQ files were created on an EV (Electro-Voice) DX-38.  If you use one of those, it's plug & play.  If you use another brand (Xilica comes to mind) they use a different format...so you might have to figure out how the different input formats change the stated input value.

 

The 'deeper bass' is actually already there, it's just being masked by the sidewalls resonating.

 

It's a good fix.

DX-38 settings for LaScala (1 or 2) LF with K402 & K69.pdf

[Marvel]

Switching to a driver with a 2 inch throat is a game changer.

[paulgyro]

1 hour ago, Coytee said:

 

 

Here it is.  Some comments though:

 

1.  It's an active so you'd need four channels of amplification

2. This is the original one he did and it presumes the original driver, K-69 (or was it the K-69-A?)

3.  If you use a different HF driver, you might likely have to adjust the settings on the crossover

4.  Note the PEQ: -7 db's @ 148 Hz, this will take most/all of the resonance of the bass bin out and they will sound like they're playing deeper bass.

5.  Forgot...  the attached PEQ files were created on an EV (Electro-Voice) DX-38.  If you use one of those, it's plug & play.  If you use another brand (Xilica comes to mind) they use a different format...so you might have to figure out how the different input formats change the stated input value.

 

The 'deeper bass' is actually already there, it's just being masked by the sidewalls resonating.

 

It's a good fix.

DX-38 settings for LaScala (1 or 2) LF with K402 & K69.pdf 22.35 kB · 3 downloads

Wow amazing, thank you sir. Did this circulate on the forum here back in 2008?

 

Paul

[Coytee]

It's been around for a while, yes.  In fact, I have same info for K402 on the LaScala, (Underground) Jubilee and MWM's.

 

All created by Roy so not some mad scientist working in secret in a smoke filled darkened room.

 

Or, maybe that's his brilliance?  HE is the man working in secret in a smoke filled darkened room and his Mr. Nice Guy persona is a ruse??

 

 

[Coytee]

Forgot to mention, ALL of these (PDF's) are posted on the forum....  I'm not sure how to search for them so I just post them when someone asks.

[Quad Khorns]

I am curious as to the meaning of some of this data...you never know when a set of La Scala's magically appear in my house. I'd like to confirm my understanding of the information in the pdf, perhaps to accurately apply these to other DSP brands. Any clarification is appreciated:

 

I assume PEQ stand for Parametric EQ filter?

It appears that EQ is being applied to the input signal (FR / In1 and In2 columns). If that is true, is that due to the EV Dx38 having a limited number of filters available on the outputs?

Crossover section - I assume LR24 is Linkwitz-Riley with 24 dB/oct slope

Does a "Normal" HP/LP polarity mean that + voltage applied to the red (or +) terminal moves cone forward?

The "Output" rows - does a 4 level in the LO column mean that the entire low frequency spectrum (420 Hz and below) is booster 4dB?

What is the "Knobs" rows and what do input and output apply to? What does a -6 Output mean?

 

Thanks in advance!