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I added subs to my Cornwall IVs and fell in love all over again


CoryGillmore

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29 minutes ago, EpicKlipschFan said:

ive owned lots of subs over the years & always preferred sealed for music

When I was into car audio, I strongly preferred sealed subs for reasons noted. Now, I prefer a quality larger  driver ported sub for the impact and sq.  I completely get the benefits of horn subs and loved em, but the size, availability and limited placement options in my room... 

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3 hours ago, Westcoastdrums said:

Don't worry, I have toy subs also and I'm fully content.  More than one way to skin a cat.   If you love it, all that matters. 

  Right , more than one way to skin a cat! .   The truth is  there are very fine subwoofers found  in all types .If you like a horn subwoofer, then you probably would be largely satisfied with a well executed overdamped low tuned  ported and vice versa . Some people prefer the sound of a critically damped or even underdamped  cabinet  , horn sub guys likely wouldn’t like this sound much , but some  people prefer to hear more overtones rather than just the fundamental tone , so it’s largely a matter of taste. It’s actually a complicated subject matter , that’s why I tend to just  copy proven designs.🤓

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30 minutes ago, jason str said:

I have been around long enough to understand what Claude was trying to get through and if you can hear your subwoofer you are doing it wrong no matter what style or type.

 

 

I understand that viewpoint and agree in general. Of course, there are plenty of times where I intentionally run the subs quite hot for certain songs or movies. 

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18 hours ago, jason str said:

I have been around long enough to understand what Claude was trying to get through and if you can hear your subwoofer you are doing it wrong no matter what style or type.

 

 

I understand perfectly well what he's trying to say and I can agree with it in certain situations-- if you really crank your stereo up house parties DJ-ing or maybe in home theater applications if playing at loud levels don't need explosions and such distorting the mains, basically any time you'd be pushing your speakers to the point where they could become strained or distort then yeah, cross them suckers over and use subs for the low end. 

 

I cannot believe that the new Cornwall's or forte's cannot handle running full range as designed at moderate levels without distorting to the point that need to be crossed over that would be a poor design and unacceptable at their price points. 

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50 minutes ago, jjptkd said:

I understand perfectly well what he's trying to say and I can agree with it in certain situations-- if you really crank your stereo up house parties DJ-ing or maybe in home theater applications if playing at loud levels don't need explosions and such distorting the mains, basically any time you'd be pushing your speakers to the point where they could become strained or distort then yeah, cross them suckers over and use subs for the low end. 

 

I cannot believe that the new Cornwall's or forte's cannot handle running full range as designed at moderate levels without distorting to the point that need to be crossed over that would be a poor design and unacceptable at their price points. 

Sure, everybody who listens at low volume can get by with bookshelf speakers because they don't need anything bigger. ✓

 

Cornwall and Forte do quite well for the price in comparison.

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On 2/18/2022 at 11:18 AM, EpicKlipschFan said:

hate to rain on this parade but SVS are far from toy subs, their mid to upper end subs are very good & competitive to other brands at the same price points & they get very good reviews from practically everyone that hears or owns them.  thats fine if you or the other naysayers dont like them, have you ever heard a good SVS sub? strange how so many others love them but a couple on here feel the need to constantly bash them or compare them to subs 2-3 times their size or of a different design.  :rolleyes:

 

& as i mention every time i suggest them, of course there are better subs, nobody is claiming SVS are the best or better than HUGE horn loaded subs you need to build. not everyone needs that type of sub nor can they fit them in their rooms, most people have space limitations or WAF to consider & they dont want to build a sub or pay someone to do it & run external amps & crossovers etc etc.  SVS has many benefits i mentioned above that no other sub company or DIY sub has, that is why i suggest them & based on my experience even their mid level subs are as good or better than many other similar priced  brands or almost any klipsch sub of comparable price new or used.

BULLSHIT (PWK).

 

You are not raining on my parade of FACTS with your emotional, "Brand Fanboy" response here. Paul Klipsch PROVED with the science of math and measurements, without a doubt, that HORNS have the lowest Intermodulation Distortion (mud index) over direct radiators of any kind or brand by REDUCTION of cone MOTION. He received a Silver Medal of Honor from the Audio Engineering Society for this. He proved that horn loading a driver, in one particular best case scenario, that increasing Sensitivity with Horn Loading, increased the OUTPUT by 15 db (thereby reducing Power Demand by 30X less) while reducing Modulation Sidebands (never present in the original music signals) by a whopping 25 db! (by an even more impressive factor of 316 Time LESS). Which is why he only claimed it to be an Approximate inverse proportion, with total honesty in his choice of words describing those measured facts and trends.

 

Let's start of with Ported subs, which squeeze more and lower output from a given driver as the "best way to use a hollow box with holes and tubes." Most high Xmas drivers with stiff/heavy cones have a sensitivity in the range of 83 db on a good day, so adding an extra 3-6 db of output from the ports gets you to a typical 86-90 db of output for that 1 Watt over the band of 20-100 Hz. Which is what we want from a sub. Claims of them going down to 13 Hz. is a best case scenario of 10 db down from the rest of the band, requiring corner loading to achieve. 99% of Blue Ray movies have Zero output below 20 Hz. and even IMAX Subwoofers are Specced Out to only 23 Hz.!! So forget about the expense of going down to the low teens, it's a waste of time and money, unless you are Josh Ricci, who spent $25,000 to built his two 36 Cubic foot Horn/Ported M.A.U.L. subwoofers, which I doubt if anyone else on the planet ever went that far. Certainly not on THIS Forum!!!

 

Basically, the curves of the SVS "types" of subwoofers are shown at 90 db output, so if we want 130 db output PEAKS, we need about 2,000 watts to do it. Compare this to only about 100 Watts each required  for the THTLP Pair. Guess who's electric bill will be lower. Also most people who have Tuba HT's (Low Profile or regular) only need 10 Watts of input for 116 db output at 20 Hz. and those that have them claim they think that any more than that will blow out their windows!

 

With a 22 x 31" footprint, this SVS High Power Sub has a much larger foot print than a Bill Fitzmaurice THTLP subwoofer, which has only an 18x24" foot print (about the same as a Cornwall), which is all that matters. Who cares about how TALL a subwoofer is? You can stand up a THTLP Horn sub to fire up into the ceiling from a wall or corner placement.

 

I'm guessing that you could get a builder like JasonSTR to build you TWO of those THTLPS's for way less than the price of this single SVS driver and leave you enough change to buy Two Lower power with better Modal Distribution in the Room, and way lower distortion of any kind. So for less money, you get 2 subs, higher output and lower distortion, with a SMALLER FOOTPRINT than this SVS "top of the line monster Distortion Generator." Albeit, it is "tolerable distortion" because even though it is less "pure" sub bass, it does not, by nature, modulate the Mains or Surrounds, so it works out OK for those with more money than knowledge in Audio.

 

Remember the rule: The less Watts you use, the lower the distortion, PERIOD.

 

So my parade is covered by a Giant Umbrella of Audio Physics.

 

 

SVSflagship.jpg

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3 hours ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

BULLSHIT (PWK).

 

You are not raining on my parade of FACTS with your emotional, "Brand Fanboy" response here. Paul Klipsch PROVED with the science of math and measurements, without a doubt, that HORNS have the lowest Intermodulation Distortion (mud index) over direct radiators of any kind or brand by REDUCTION of cone MOTION. He received a Silver Medal of Honor from the Audio Engineering Society for this. He proved that horn loading a driver, in one particular best case scenario, that increasing Sensitivity with Horn Loading, increased the OUTPUT by 15 db (thereby reducing Power Demand by 30X less) while reducing Modulation Sidebands (never present in the original music signals) by a whopping 25 db! (by an even more impressive factor of 316 Time LESS). Which is why he only claimed it to be an Approximate inverse proportion, with total honesty in his choice of words describing those measured facts and trends.

 

Let's start of with Ported subs, which squeeze more and lower output from a given driver as the "best way to use a hollow box with holes and tubes." Most high Xmas drivers with stiff/heavy cones have a sensitivity in the range of 83 db on a good day, so adding an extra 3-6 db of output from the ports gets you to a typical 86-90 db of output for that 1 Watt over the band of 20-100 Hz. Which is what we want from a sub. Claims of them going down to 13 Hz. is a best case scenario of 10 db down from the rest of the band, requiring corner loading to achieve. 99% of Blue Ray movies have Zero output below 20 Hz. and even IMAX Subwoofers are Specced Out to only 23 Hz.!! So forget about the expense of going down to the low teens, it's a waste of time and money, unless you are Josh Ricci, who spent $25,000 to built his two 36 Cubic foot Horn/Ported M.A.U.L. subwoofers, which I doubt if anyone else on the planet ever went that far. Certainly not on THIS Forum!!!

 

Basically, the curves of the SVS "types" of subwoofers are shown at 90 db output, so if we want 130 db output PEAKS, we need about 2,000 watts to do it. Compare this to only about 100 Watts each required  for the THTLP Pair. Guess who's electric bill will be lower. Also most people who have Tuba HT's (Low Profile or regular) only need 10 Watts of input for 116 db output at 20 Hz. and those that have them claim they think that any more than that will blow out their windows!

 

With a 22 x 31" footprint, this SVS High Power Sub has a much larger foot print than a Bill Fitzmaurice THTLP subwoofer, which has only an 18x24" foot print (about the same as a Cornwall), which is all that matters. Who cares about how TALL a subwoofer is? You can stand up a THTLP Horn sub to fire up into the ceiling from a wall or corner placement.

 

I'm guessing that you could get a builder like JasonSTR to build you TWO of those THTLPS's for way less than the price of this single SVS driver and leave you enough change to buy Two Lower power with better Modal Distribution in the Room, and way lower distortion of any kind. So for less money, you get 2 subs, higher output and lower distortion, with a SMALLER FOOTPRINT than this SVS "top of the line monster Distortion Generator." Albeit, it is "tolerable distortion" because even though it is less "pure" sub bass, it does not, by nature, modulate the Mains or Surrounds, so it works out OK for those with more money than knowledge in Audio.

 

Remember the rule: The less Watts you use, the lower the distortion, PERIOD.

 

So my parade is covered by a Giant Umbrella of Audio Physics.

 

 

SVSflagship.jpg

 

emotional brand fanboy???  LOL!!!  your use of CAPS for so many words is whats EMOTIONAL...  you clearly are missing the points i explained & continue the SVS bashing for some strange reason...  NOBODY is trying to compare a direct radiating sub to a horn loaded sub!  ive said 2 or 3 times now that there are better subs than SVS or any given brand of direct radiator subs, its a simple suggestion for a very good sub with many benefits no other brand or DIY sub has.  so you can save youre umbrella of audio physics argument for someone else, nobody here is doubting that. 

 

re-read what i said again please... not everyone wants or needs or can build a DIY horn sub & run external amps & crossovers,  countless people are more than happy with pre made subs with internal amps & most look way better than a DIY horn sub.  in fact i bet 9 out of 10 average people out there use a premade direct rad sub & they are all as happy as can be vs horn loaded subs.  & AGAIN, thats fine if thats what YOU prefer or anyone wants or needs, but your horn loaded svs bashing parade is very short & not many people are attending it.  theres a reason why SVS & many other sub brands get 5 star reviews & win all kinds of awards...  wonder why klipsch & majority of other brands dont make a prebuilt horn loaded consumer sub?? 

 

the OP started this thread to comment how his smaller cheap subs benefit the big cornwalls, i simply suggested a better sub thats still rather small if/when he wanted to upgrade.  sorry if that offended you.      

 

 

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3 hours ago, Westcoastdrums said:

When someone builds me a Tuba sub, I'll sell what I bought and replace it with one. I can make a single work. Since no one wants to build me one for a reasonable price and I am not going to build it myself, I'll stick with me new purchase instead.   

Just as a point of interest ...

 

I built a THTLP a couple of months ago. I had the necessary tools and was able to build it in my garage. All told, it cost me about CAD$1250 (roughly US$985). I've been very pleased with the THTLP.

 

I'm getting a second THTLP. Since it's too cold to work in my garage now, I've hired a builder to make it for me. He's charging me about CAD$650 (on top of materials) for the build, so that the second one will cost about CAD$1900 (roughly US$1500).

 

The THTLP replaced an SVS SB1000 Pro subwoofer (roughly CAD$900) which is pretty much SVS' entry level subwoofer. The SVS was a good unit but was no match for my La Scalas.

 

I don't know what commercially available subwoofer would be comparable to the THTLP, or what it would cost.

Edited by Dave MacKay
Corrected costs
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7 minutes ago, Westcoastdrums said:

Damn, see that build cost would make me just want to keep what I have for what I paid.   They are so close on price once you add an amp, yet my subs retain resale value and have more performance and headroom than one could ever use even getting silly with bass levels in my room.   

You have purchased many models while you've been here and keep selling them looking for greener grass.

 

Stop the wait and jump in.

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10 minutes ago, jason str said:

Stop the wait and jump in.

I've sent you PMs about this. I reached out to several builders and no one was willing to make me a sub.  I found one guy that was willing, however, his price was so high, it didn't make sense.   They sell for $500 used.  Surely won't pay $2000 for one to be built.  No thanks.   

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1 hour ago, EpicKlipschFan said:

sorry if that offended you.      

 

No offense taken or given. I was just using your post, in contrast, and as a springboard,  to drive my points about the superiority or horns subs from all angles. I used all caps for key emphasis, not to "shout." You made some good points also, but I do consider anything posted without measurements to be "emotional testing" and has very little value for those who read rather than listen to YOUR specific setup.

 

I'm less guilty of this type of testing than everyone here (except ChrisA who always has measurements) since I could post measurements I have not deleted already, going back 20 years, but that would get boring really quick.

 

My main one was about the workable FOOTPRINT that is about the same as the best of the "toy subs" in COMPARISON, just in case someone would use that as an excuse for not going with a skinny/tall horn. Height only matter to a GAF or WAF as a factor, when the majority of guys are concerned, but only to keep the piece, I mean peace.

 

SVS was the easiest brand to pick on because they are not cheap and represent one of the best Bass Reflex/High Power amp designs. The "fan boy" was not meant to be accusatory anymore than the "Klipsch Fanboy" observations made of someone who use the expression "fell in love" that solicited a different response from someone else I agree with.

 

No matter the choice, it's all a COMPROMISE and/or Bang for Buck exercise.

 

But for those who simply want the BEST, regardless of Cost or WAF, horns are still the ultimate and why I have owned and heard so many which gives me design, built, measure, listen, and Experience with which to stake my claim.

 

It's like the old Sears "good better best" model of selling and marketing, which includes a progressive 4th category in concert: Sealed, Ported, Tapped, or Full, the latter 2 being big horns, while the first are small boxes, relatively speaking, and the Tapped being a good compromise as the 4th category.

 

So in the interest of posting the very best INFOMATION that I have learned in the last 55 years, I can only give y'all the best I got.

 

Otherwise, I fully believe in the American Expression: "Everyone has the right to their own ridiculous opinions, including me!"

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39 minutes ago, Westcoastdrums said:

and headroom than one could ever use even getting silly with bass levels in my room.   

Nothing silly about lowering DISTORTION, which is the best determinant of Sound QUALITY.

 

I just heard a Hybrid design at a friend's house last night. He has superior building skills, a to die for wood shop, and a fully optimized sound room for the task. It took him 5 years to evolve his speaker that uses a slot loaded 8-15" Woofer section Open Baffle, 7 feet tall line array that is trying to avoid horn by using Lots and Lots of Vertical Drivers to try and approach the sound of my horns. His $10,000 Audio Research Class D amps are certainly capable, but it still falls short of MY quality sound benchmark with my All HORN systems, whether 2.1 or full Atmos upstairs. Low distortion, Detail, and Dynamics are still King and horns are the only ones that DELIVER! 

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Just now, ClaudeJ1 said:

Nothing silly about lowering DISTORTION, which is the best determinant of Sound QUALITY.

Two points here.   Four 18" Woofers (two subs) with a 2k RMS power amp in each sub that each draw PEAK 4 amps current from the wall, is very green.   The distortion on the subs in this example will be very low with premium b&c drivers, huge 6" flared ports and high SNR ice power amps.  My new subs won't have much distortion compared to horn subs either.  Excursion won't be happening much at all. 

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