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I added subs to my Cornwall IVs and fell in love all over again


CoryGillmore

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49 minutes ago, Westcoastdrums said:

I've sent you PMs about this. I reached out to several builders and no one was willing to make me a sub.  I found one guy that was willing, however, his price was so high, it didn't make sense.   They sell for $500 used.  Surely won't pay $2000 for one to be built.  No thanks.   

I personally cannot help, truth be told I have a hard time just getting out to the store. There is my old demo Table Tuba available but don't really want to sell it.

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2 minutes ago, jason str said:

I personally cannot help, truth be told I have a hard time just getting out to the store. There is my old demo Table Tuba available but don't really want to sell it.

I know, we discussed that.   Good luck in your sale, but that particular unit wouldn't be for me.  I am happy with my new purchase for now and will keep my eyes open for a deal in the right horn sub(s).  No rush. 

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41 minutes ago, Westcoastdrums said:

Two points here.   Four 18" Woofers (two subs) with a 2k RMS power amp in each sub that each draw PEAK 4 amps current from the wall, is very green.   The distortion on the subs in this example will be very low with premium b&c drivers, huge 6" flared ports and high SNR ice power amps.  My new subs won't have much distortion compared to horn subs either.  Excursion won't be happening much at all. 

I also use a tapped horn with a 21" B&C driver with 6" voice coil, so I'm no stranger to "bigger cones and more of them" approach.

 

Yes, you can have multiple 18's to try and catch up to a Horn's clarity and low distortion in the Sub bass region, below 40 Hz. It will work, but it's still, generically speaking, an "air pusher" instead of an "air squeezer." All other things being equal (they never are), the "air squeezer" always wins.

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8 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

I also use a tapped horn with a 21" B&C driver with 6" voice coil, so I'm no stranger to "bigger cones and more of them" approach.

 

Yes, you can have multiple 18's to try and catch up to a Horn's clarity and low distortion in the Sub bass region, below 40 Hz. It will work, but it's still, generically speaking, an "air pusher" instead of an "air squeezer." All other things being equal (they never are), the "air squeezer" always wins.

I don't disagree, however, I truly wonder how much better a horn vs the dual 18" B&C Ported sub side by side each playing 110 dB peaks would be.  Remember, I have owned and lived with horn subs that I sold to Eric. I am not unfamiliar.   The horn subs I sold were EXTREME subs.   They were very violent in certain frequencies.  They Def sounded like the needed to be eq'd flat.  These psa b&c subs are eq'd flat out of the box. 

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1 hour ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

No offense taken or given. I was just using your post, in contrast, and as a springboard,  to drive my points about the superiority or horns subs from all angles. I used all caps for key emphasis, not to "shout." You made some good points also, but I do consider anything posted without measurements to be "emotional testing" and has very little value for those who read rather than listen to YOUR specific setup.

 

I'm less guilty of this type of testing than everyone here (except ChrisA who always has measurements) since I could post measurements I have not deleted already, going back 20 years, but that would get boring really quick.

 

My main one was about the workable FOOTPRINT that is about the same as the best of the "toy subs" in COMPARISON, just in case someone would use that as an excuse for not going with a skinny/tall horn. Height only matter to a GAF or WAF as a factor, when the majority of guys are concerned, but only to keep the piece, I mean peace.

 

SVS was the easiest brand to pick on because they are not cheap and represent one of the best Bass Reflex/High Power amp designs. The "fan boy" was not meant to be accusatory anymore than the "Klipsch Fanboy" observations made of someone who use the expression "fell in love" that solicited a different response from someone else I agree with.

 

No matter the choice, it's all a COMPROMISE and/or Bang for Buck exercise.

 

But for those who simply want the BEST, regardless of Cost or WAF, horns are still the ultimate and why I have owned and heard so many which gives me design, built, measure, listen, and Experience with which to stake my claim.

 

It's like the old Sears "good better best" model of selling and marketing, which includes a progressive 4th category in concert: Sealed, Ported, Tapped, or Full, the latter 2 being big horns, while the first are small boxes, relatively speaking, and the Tapped being a good compromise as the 4th category.

 

So in the interest of posting the very best INFOMATION that I have learned in the last 55 years, I can only give y'all the best I got.

 

Otherwise, I fully believe in the American Expression: "Everyone has the right to their own ridiculous opinions, including me!"

 

no offense taken on my part, just replying to your comments & comparisons... i didnt compare anything to a horn sub, however, your comparison is using the biggest sub SVS makes... im keeping on track with the OPs comments that he has limited space (as most people do) if i compared anything it was a similar sized SVS to his little klipsch subs... that would be the sb2000pro or sb3000 that are all of a ~14" cube. & at their new or used prices they are hard to beat for everything you get with SVS.  im not very familiar with all the horn loaded options but based on the comments above they are priced pretty high, $1500-2000+ without an amp, vs a $1000 new or $700-800 used SB3000 that will outperform his & most other klipsch subs in every way. plus all the other benefits i mention that yourself & some others dont seem to acknowledge yet are very important when buying a new or used sub. 

 

im not brand specific & far from a fan boy of any brand, ive owned a lot of subs & speakers over the years from K-horns to KGs & CF4s & countless others in between, maybe not as many as some on here or as large but ive had my share of pretty decent speakers, subs & audio gear & the suggestions i make are based on my experiences with consumer type subs/speakers. nothing wrong with sharing INFORMATION, im sure many appreciate it, its just totally off topic for this thread & nobody was trying to compare horn sub performance to other common subs.   

 

also, who the heck needs 130db in their home!??  i have been to A-list rock concerts that reach into the 120dbs & youre ears are muffled & ringing for days afterwards!  back in the late 80's in my city we had a rock band try & set the guiness book world record for loudest concert, they did 127db & it was ridiculous!  ive been to coutless rock concerts & tried to recreate that sound level in my home for a long time in my teens & 20s-early 30s... im done with all that now & would never care to have a sub or system to reach into the 120s let alone 130db unless i was throwing a huge party outdoors or in a huge venue.... i have a smaller house in a residential neighborhood!  ;)

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2 hours ago, Westcoastdrums said:

Damn, see that build cost would make me just want to keep what I have for what I paid.   They are so close on price once you add an amp, yet my subs retain resale value and have more performance and headroom than one could ever use even getting silly with bass levels in my room.   

I had included the cost for two drivers and two plate amps in the costs I originally cited. I've since corrected the post. Sorry for my mistake.

 

The cost to build the first THTLP was about US$985. The second one, that I'm having built, will cost about US$1500. Those prices include everything, even a 250W plate amp with DSP.

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19 minutes ago, Dave MacKay said:

I had included the cost for two drivers and two plate amps in the costs I originally cited. I've since corrected the post. Sorry for my mistake.

 

The cost to build the first THTLP was about US$985. The second one, that I'm having built, will cost about US$1500. Those prices include everything, even a 250W plate amp with DSP.

That's much more reasonable. Shipping was the killer on my deal which I couldn't get under $500 insured from the builder per his quotes.  Didn't make sense for me to proceed. 

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6 hours ago, EpicKlipschFan said:

also, who the heck needs 130db in their home!

It's a peak value that can be easily reached by a pair of THT's since they are about 106 x 2 = 109 with 100 W per sub (small plate amp) which is +20 dbWatts to get to 129, which I just rounded up. Much like you have a speed limit of 70 with cars that can go 120. Same thing. Demo mode of movie explosions will use it for a millisecond peak without clipping or even reaching that high, but the point of LOW distortion still remains since horn just "loaf along" with maybe 2-3 watts peak most times.

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7 hours ago, EpicKlipschFan said:

also, who the heck needs 130db in their home!??  i have been to A-list rock concerts that reach into the 120dbs & youre ears are muffled & ringing for days afterwards! 

When I saw Tool in January 2020, just before covid really took off in the US, I thought it was too damn loud and the treble was hot as hell. Everyone always talked about how incredible Tool sounded live but I was like "nah it sounds better on my headphone rigs" and now that I have a competent 2-channel setup there's no comparison. I wish I had taken a db reading at the concert. But yeah it felt like I had cotton in my ears the rest of the night. I saw Post Malone at the same venue a month later and I thought he sounded better and my ears didn't feel like they were stuffed afterwards. And I'm a HUGE Tool fan....

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11 minutes ago, CoryGillmore said:

Why is the LaScala one of the weakest bass outputting speakers that Klipsch makes? I mean damn the thing has a 15" sub in a folded horn cabinet (which is massive, btw) and it outputs less bass than a Cornwall with the same sub in a direct radiating config. I never understood it. 

Short answer, short horn.  Easy fix....or cornscala.... 

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11 hours ago, CoryGillmore said:

Why is the LaScala one of the weakest bass outputting speakers that Klipsch makes? I mean damn the thing has a 15" sub in a folded horn cabinet (which is massive, btw) and it outputs less bass than a Cornwall with the same sub in a direct radiating config. I never understood it. 

The "damn thing" doe NOT have a 15" Sub. It's a woofer driver, not a Subwoofer driver. The short horn is a 104 Hz. horn, which creates a +8db Acoustic Air Transformer with narrow bandwidth being traded for the boost. All horns are narrow band devices. That's the trade you make to get higher sensitivity, higher output, and lower distortion. This is why modern horn systems are either 4 -way or in the case of the Jubilee, a 2-way with lots of Digital EQ. Harkens a bit to the old Bose 901, where, without the bass and treble boost to make it work, you had bunch of midrange drivers with severe rolloff at both ends. PWK used it as the best example of Gross Intermodulation Distortion, which does not occur in big horns with big drivers designed specifically to drive a horn.

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