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I added subs to my Cornwall IVs and fell in love all over again


CoryGillmore

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Just now, CoryGillmore said:

He was definitely agreeing with you..I don't understand why you're being snarky with him...

I wasn't trying to be snarky with anybody. If anything I've said came off that way, my apologies. Never my intent to be rude to anybody, ever.

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3 hours ago, CoryGillmore said:

I gotcha. A 15" woofer. Is it the exact same driver the CW uses? From what I hear from other people, it doesn't reach as low or have the impact of a Cornwall. While being much more massive than a Cornwall. It just seems like a flawed design, in the case of the La Scala specifically. 

The way I see it is, PWK takes a 15" speaker and makes it a driver much like your mid and high driver. Look at the space the 15" speaker is placed in. Much smaller then the space for the speaker in a Cornwall. That and the LaScala speaker has a plate with a slot in it limiting the travel of the speaker turning it into a driver. The small enclosed chamber with the small front slot makes it a driver instead of a just a speaker. The horn part of the speaker is what creates the amplification of the low notes. The Klipshorn is similar except the horn part is folded 3 times instead of two in a LaScala limiting the low frequency it will produce. Drivers travel much less then a speaker which limits the distortion a speaker has all over the cone with it's longer travel. This is what makes horn speakers much more cleaner and faster then conventional speakers, all drivers. Naturally with only 2 folds of the horn the LaScala is not going to produce the very low notes like a big boxed Cornwall type speaker with the same speaker. I hope this makes sense and if I am wrong I am sure others will chime in. 

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57 minutes ago, svberger said:

I'm 65. I've been an active music fan and player for over 50 years. I know what good bass sounds like to me. I don't listen to much of today's bass heavy music, and like I said I don't do home theater either. I've had more speakers then I can remember, from the cheap to the very expensive. That goes for gear as well. I've listened to amazing systems in amazing homes and in stores. And unless you're my age, I'm guessing I've been to a lot more concerts then you. So the bottom line is what I want to hear is being heard. I know it's a tough one for you to swallow, but I get chest thumping bass out of the LS's. Not at quiet volumes for sure. But when I want to turn up the amps and listen to something that should be listened to loudly, I do, and I hear and feel the bass. Real bass. Using a sub to provide me with more of that, or perhaps a few more octaves that I don't miss will be wasted on me. I've tried them, I've heard them, and I'm not a fan. If you are, great. More power to you, my friend. We all listen differently, and I learned a long time ago not to criticize or belittle those that don't do it like me.

 

 

The bass a LaScala makes is outstanding but is limited in how low it will go. If one is playing The Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra's Tchaikowsky 1812 too loud with it's real cannon shots you will jump out of your chair when they go off. Right in the LaScala's wheelhouse. Listened with my LaScala's without a sub for decades and did not know what I was missing until I installed a good sub. Mine is one I built myself using a Dayton Audio RSS390HF-4 15" Reference Series HF Subwoofer in a 6cu ft sealed box. Too big for many with a low WAF but is supposed to go really low in such a big box.

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Drivers are most often called a compression driver. How do you make a big 15" woofer into a compression driver? Stick in a small box that restricts it's rear movement and install a baffle with a slot in front of the woofer to restrict the forward motion of the speaker. You have now made a low signal compression driver. If not put in a horn this setup would not make much bass. Drivers move very little compared to conventional speakers. The horn part amplifies the small signal. One good reason for compression drivers over conventional speakers is the small movement of the driver reducing distortion and increasing transients. In a normal conventional large speaker there is flexing all over the surface of the cone when trying to produce music that contributes to distortion. A good reason we prefer horns over conventional speaker systems. 

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16 minutes ago, henry4841 said:

Drivers are most often called a compression driver. How do you make a big 15" woofer into a compression driver? Stick in a small box that restricts it's rear movement and install a baffle with a slot in front of the woofer to restrict the forward motion of the speaker. You have now made a low signal compression driver. If not put in a horn this setup would not make much bass. Drivers move very little compared to conventional speakers. The horn part amplifies the small signal. One good reason for compression drivers over conventional speakers is the small movement of the driver reducing distortion and increasing transients. In a normal conventional large speaker there is flexing all over the surface of the cone when trying to produce music that contributes to distortion. A good reason we prefer horns over conventional speaker systems. 

similar to what Danley does in their multiple entry horns (SH-50, SH-96, etc)?

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On 2/20/2022 at 12:53 PM, Dave MacKay said:

The cost to build the first THTLP was about US$985.

Wow, at that price put me in the Queue! Even with shipping that would be very reasonable. Unfortunately, I can't cross cut a 2X4 straight. Lol.

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On 2/21/2022 at 4:16 PM, henry4841 said:

Drivers are most often called a compression driver. How do you make a big 15" woofer into a compression driver? Stick in a small box that restricts it's rear movement and install a baffle with a slot in front of the woofer to restrict the forward motion of the speaker. You have now made a low signal compression driver. If not put in a horn this setup would not make much bass. Drivers move very little compared to conventional speakers. The horn part amplifies the small signal. One good reason for compression drivers over conventional speakers is the small movement of the driver reducing distortion and increasing transients. In a normal conventional large speaker there is flexing all over the surface of the cone when trying to produce music that contributes to distortion. A good reason we prefer horns over conventional speaker systems. 

 

To avoid confusion, it’s good to use standard terms, so we’re all on the same page.  Every speaker is made of one or more drivers.  There are cone drivers, dome drivers, compression drivers, electrostatic drivers, and so on.  When you put a driver in a cabinet, or attach a compression driver to a horn, and add a crossover, or balancing network, as Klipsch used to call them, then you have a loudspeaker system.

 

In the La Scala, placing a relatively narrow slot in front of the 15” cone driver allows it to mimic a compression driver.  The slot does not restrict the woofer, it increases the speed of the air being moved by the cone of the driver.  Then, placing a horn in front of that slot allows the high-speed air to slow down, and move a larger amount of air, with the net result that it’s easier to move the air in the room.  The number of bends in the horn is irrelevant.  The length of the horn is what matters when it comes to low bass extension.  The Klipschorn was a breakthrough when it came out, because it folded a fairly long horn into a manageable package, then used the walls of the room as extensions of the horn, allowing for deep bass without needing much amplifier power or floorspace.  This was a new concept in 1946, when Paul Klipsch invented it.

 

Later, in 1963, he wanted a “portable” size speaker for touring PA service, so he came up with the La Scala.  It’s smaller than the Khorn, sort of, and does not need to be in a corner like the Khorn does.  As well, for PA use, deep bass wasn’t needed.  This is why many La Scala owners add a subwoofer or two in order to get the deep bass required to hear most music in the most realistic way.

 

The La Scala’s limited deep bass is due to the relatively short length of its bass horn, barely 3 feet, compared with the 8-foot-long horn on the Khorn.  Getting deep bass with a horn-loaded speaker requires such a long horn that most manufacturers of horn-loaded speaker systems go with a separate direct-firing subwoofer, except for Avantgarde Acoustics speakers, whose optional horn-loaded subwoofer is really enormous.

 

One of PWK’s sayings was, “If it moves, it distorts.”, so he designed his speakers to produce full volume with only 1/16” excursion, which reduces distortion to a fraction of that produced by nearly all other speakers.

 

So how does a horn work?  One explanation is that it lets the small diaphragm of the compression driver, or the larger cone of the Klipsch woofers, act like they are much larger, the size of the opening of the horn, in fact, which is pretty big.  I like to compare horn-loading a speaker to putting swim fins on a swimmer.  With bare feet, a swimmer’s feet get very little grip on the water, so he kicks hard and uses lots of energy, but doesn’t go very fast.  However, if he puts on some fins, now his feet get a good grip on the water, and he can go much faster, with a fraction of the effort.  In the same way, a horn lets the driver (cone or compression type) get a much better “grip” on the air in the room, so that it can produce much  louder sounds with a fraction of the diaphragm or cone movement, and a fraction of the amplifier power needed by a conventional direct-firing speaker.

 

Why was efficiency so important to PWK?  For two reasons:  first, he wanted to be able to hear a symphony orchestra, with as many as a hundred instruments, sound just as loud through his speaker (music was mono back then, so he only needed one speaker) as if he were sitting in the front row of the concert hall, with only 5 watts of amplifier power!

 

Second, he wanted the music to sound as realistic as possible, so the distortion level had to be much lower than that produced by nearly all other speakers, so he needed to have very minimal driver excursion.  The horn made both requirements possible.

 

Also, the speaker had to fit inside a typical living room, which seemed like an impossible set of requirements, but it all came together with the Klipschorn, which has been in continuous production for 74 years!  Paul got it right the first time, but he kept on making improvements, and other Heritage Series speakers, until he died in 2002 at the age of 98.

 

’Nuff said!

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10 hours ago, Islander said:

 

To avoid confusion, it’s good to use standard terms, so we’re all on the same page.  Every speaker is made of one or more drivers.  There are cone drivers, dome drivers, compression drivers, electrostatic drivers, and so on.  When you put a driver in a cabinet, or attach a compression driver to a horn, and add a crossover, or balancing network, as Klipsch used to call them, then you have a loudspeaker system.

 

In the La Scala, placing a relatively narrow slot in front of the 15” cone driver allows it to mimic a compression driver.  The slot does not restrict the woofer, it increases the speed of the air being moved by the cone of the driver.  Then, placing a horn in front of that slot allows the high-speed air to slow down, and move a larger amount of air, with the net result that it’s easier to move the air in the room.  The number of bends in the horn is irrelevant.  The length of the horn is what matters when it comes to low bass extension.  The Klipschorn was a breakthrough when it came out, because it folded a fairly long horn into a manageable package, then used the walls of the room as extensions of the horn, allowing for deep bass without needing much amplifier power or floorspace.  This was a new concept in 1946, when Paul Klipsch invented it.

 

Later, in 1963, he wanted a “portable” size speaker for touring PA service, so he came up with the La Scala.  It’s smaller than the Khorn, sort of, and does not need to be in a corner like the Khorn does.  As well, for PA use, deep bass wasn’t needed.  This is why many La Scala owners add a subwoofer or two in order to get the deep bass required to hear most music in the most realistic way.

 

The La Scala’s limited deep bass is due to the relatively short length of its bass horn, less than 3 feet, compared with the 8-foot-long horn on the Khorn.  Getting deep bass with a horn-loaded speaker requires such a long horn that most manufacturers of horn-loaded speaker systems go with a separate direct-firing subwoofer, except for Avantgarde Acoustics speakers, whose optional horn-loaded subwoofer is really enormous.

 

One of PWK’s sayings was, “If it moves, it distorts.”, so he designed his speakers to produce full volume with only 1/16” excursion, which reduces distortion to a fraction of that produced by nearly all other speakers.

 

So how does a horn work?  One explanation is that it lets the small diaphragm of the compression driver, or the larger cone of the Klipsch woofers, act like they are much larger, the size of the opening of the horn, in fact, which is pretty big.  I like to compare horn-loading a speaker to putting swim fins on a swimmer.  With bare feet, a swimmer’s feet get very little grip on the water, so he kicks hard and uses lots of energy, but doesn’t go very fast.  However, if he puts on some fins, now his feet get a good grip on the water, and he can go much faster, with a fraction of the effort.  In the same way, a horn lets the driver (cone or compression type) get a much better “grip” on the air in the room, so that it can produce much  louder sounds with a fraction of the diaphragm or cone movement, and a fraction of the amplifier power needed by a conventional direct-firing speaker.

 

Why was efficiency so important to PWK?  For two reasons:  first, he wanted to be able to hear a symphony orchestra, with as many as a hundred instruments, sound just as loud through his speaker (music was mono back then, so he only needed one speaker) as if he was sitting in the front row of the concert hall, with only 5 watts of amplifier power!

 

Second, he wanted the music to sound as realistic as possible, so the distortion level had to be much lower than that produced by nearly all other speakers, so he needed to have very minimal driver excursion.  The horn made both requirements possible.

 

Also, the speaker had to fit inside a typical living room, which seemed like an impossible set of requirements, but it all came together with the Klipschorn, which has been in continuous production for 74 years!  Paul got it right the first time, but he kept on making improvements, and other Heritage Series speakers, until he died in 2002 at the age of 98.

 

’Nuff said!

Thank you Islander and henry4841, for breaking down how the basshorn section works! A few newbie questions if you don't mind:

 

The way klipsch puts a woofer in a box with a small opening that couples to a horn, lowers distortion, but does not restricts cone movement of the woofer.  Is that "hard" on the woofer, the cone or suspension? Does the woofer need to be built to withstand pressure/force of horn loading (stronger cone material)? Does horn loading the woofer cause excess heat in the voicecoil?  I suppose the only thing that would be stressful is if you put the wrong woofer in the wrong horn, asking it to produce bass below its capabilities, or if you're not giving it enough sealed volume.

 

Would the a bass horn benefit from a woofer that has triple spider, demodulation rings, larger and layered voice coils, even larger woofer selection, to further extend output and lower distortion? 

 

I agree that only a few watts are necessary to get adequate volume, yet I see recommendations from speaker manufacturers that the amplifier should be at least equal to the RMS wattage of the speaker, sometimes double (max).  Reason is that a low watt amp with a high watt speaker can stress the amp and/or speaker, and that an underpowered speaker, the bass isn't well defined, as low frequency transients can take huge amounts of power to reproduce.  Amp/sound quality preferences aside, is it stressful to the use a few watts amp on a woofer that is 150 RMS, or stressful on the amp?

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mikld, I just have time for a brief reply right now, but here we go.  You can power a La Scala with pretty much whatever you have in the way of amplification, as long as the amplifier is quiet, as hiss that's inaudible with other speakers may be loud enough to be annoying with sensitive speakers like La Scalas, and several other Heritage Series speakers.

 

As for power, as I mentioned in another post, you can drive Scalas with nearly anything, from 5 watts to 500 watts, as long as you don't go crazy with the volume knob.  If the speaker starts making funny noises, turn it down!  The 5-watt amp could be driven into clipping, which produces waves that are very damaging to drivers, particularly tweeters.  The 500-watt amp could overheat the speaker, but if you're in a typical home and not outdoors, the volume will be painfully loud way before you reach maximum power.

 

Horn-loading drivers doesn't put any extra load on the drivers, if that's what you're wondering.  Quite the opposite.  Maybe "horn-coupled" would be a less misleading term, since the horn couples the driver to the air in the room.  A horn is a kind of acoustic amplifier, which means that the driver gets it very easy compared with the driver in a direct-firing speaker.  If speakers were bicycles, adding horns would make it seem like you're riding downhill most of the time, and the uphills would not be very hilly.

 

Hope this is helpful.

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3 hours ago, mikld said:

Would the a bass horn benefit from a woofer that has triple spider, demodulation rings, larger and layered voice coils, even larger woofer selection, to further extend output and lower distortion? 

 

I have to smile at the way this thread took a turn from this: "I added subs to my Cornwall IVs and fell in love all over again"

to a how a non-subwoofer horn works!

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3 hours ago, mikld said:

The way klipsch puts a woofer in a box with a small opening that couples to a horn, lowers distortion, but does not restricts cone movement of the woofer.

Generically speaking, the "Restriction" comes from how loud it plays for the little power used for that tiny little bit of invisible cone movement. A "systems" approach working back to the drive voltage required.

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17 minutes ago, Islander said:

 

Could you clarify the difference between electrical impedance and acoustic impedance?

Mechanical/air impedance by air compression vs. running a driver with no cabinet at all. The difference is measurable and translates to less power draw from the amplifier by way of differential electrical impedance that results in the comparison. Again a total SYSTEMS approach to sound reproduction.

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10 hours ago, mikld said:

The way klipsch puts a woofer in a box with a small opening that couples to a horn, lowers distortion, but does not restricts cone movement of the woofer.  Is that "hard" on the woofer, the cone or suspension? Does the woofer

I think it does limit movement but Islander has his opinion which may be right. The term compression means restriction and if PWK did make a "compression" driver out of the 15" woofer I believe there is restriction on the movement of the cone. If the baffle with the small slit does not restrict movement I can see no real benefit of having it in the first place. I also believe the small chamber the speaker is enclosed in does much the same, compresses the air on the rear movement. I am no where near an acoustic engineer and it is just my opinion PWK made a compression driver out of a 15" speaker just like the compression driver in the mid horn . If one took the doghouse out of the horn part of a LaScala and tried listening with it I doubt there would be much bass to hear. Just as a compression driver without the horn does not produce much sound without the horn. I am sure I read in one of PWK's many papers that the bass speaker moves very little reducing distortion. I believe that is what he was trying to achieve with the bass horn in the Klipschorn and LaScala. I am just a layman and and this is just my humble opinion. 

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