My (Ma)Roon(ed) Experience

[artto]

Tongue in Cheek 🤩

 

Installed Roon yesterday…………..I am not a happy camper, with several caveats.

 

First, I’ll admit I probably don’t have things optimized yet.

 

Second, I’m running Roon from a Windows 8.1 laptop which apparently is not the recommended way to achieve the highest performance.

 

However, I also don’t see how adding more components (like Roon Nucleaus or Intel NUC) and/or network bridges, switches and cables are supposed improve sound quality.

 

That being said, here’s what happened.

 

After getting Roon setup on the laptop PC, and Roon app on my Tablet, I listened to a few diverse album tracks.

 

Yo-Yo Ma/Bobby McFerrin, "Grace" from Hush

10cc, “I’m Not in Love”

Wynton Marsalis/Eric Clapton, “Play the Blues Live From Lincoln Center”

 

I found something very irritating about the sound quality. I can’t put my finger on it just yet, but the recollection I have of similar experiences might be the very first CD releases, most of which were quite terrible (I have all of the initial releases from Sony CBS). Another analogy might be, it was like going back to using a Crown IC150 preamp, DC300 amp, some large horns in a small untreated reverberant room.

 

The best example of why I thought Roon was not as good as what I’m used to listening to is because, I really didn’t want to continue listening. The first song on the Marsalis/Clapton album, “Ice Cream” is kind of a cute number for an opener. With Roon, I really couldn’t wait for this to be over. Literally. I skipped forward to a couple of other tracks. Still a no go. Same “feeling” with the other tracks mentioned above.

 

I decided to play these same tracks, from the same PC, same HDMI connection to the NAD M32, but using J River as the player.

LOW AND BEHOLD. Played “Ice Cream” again. This time I didn’t want to turn it off. I wanted to continue listening, to track after track. I think this is what really tells the story. And I would go so far as to say, that if I were still an analog guy, what I heard from Roon is exactly why I would prefer vinyl and keep saying digital isn’t there yet.

 

All of that being said, I understand were some Roon fans are coming from. The multi-room/multi-user/multi-source playback convenience and whole house integration. I get it. But for me, it’s not what I need, nor want., especially if it can’t provide at least equal sound quality to what I’m currently using.

 

For me, as it currently stands, I’m getting the best sound streaming hi-res from Tidal. Router --> Ethernet --> NAD M32 BluOS. Here the raw data stream goes directly into the amplifier. No other intermediate components/connections/cables required.

 

Next would be using the laptop PC playing my ripped CD FLAC files using J River --> HDMI --> NAD M32.

 

I also tried streaming internet radio using Roon vs Ethernet directly into the M32. Same result. Very un-engaging.

 

I have a support ticket in with NAD/Bluesound. Should be interesting to see what they have to say.

[The Dude]

Interesting as I am now learning about the ROON software.  I am going to watch this and see what others have to say.  

[ClaudeJ1]

1 hour ago, artto said:

For me, as it currently stands, I’m getting the best sound streaming hi-res from Tidal. Router --> Ethernet --> NAD M32 BluOS. Here the raw data stream goes directly into the amplifier. No other intermediate components/connections/cables required.

 

Next would be using the laptop PC playing my ripped CD FLAC files using J River --> HDMI --> NAD M32.

 

I also tried streaming internet radio using Roon vs Ethernet directly into the M32. Same result. Very un-engaging.

 

I have a support ticket in with NAD/Bluesound. Should be interesting to see what they have to say.

Emotional Engagement is the goal for music listening. Your Room and Speaker setup is a true Benchmark Setup for deconstructing the Quality of program materials. It's nice to have speakers that tell the truth in quasi 3D! I believe you save a lot of people a lot of money. Just don't fall backwards into Tubes! Keep going forward as you have.

[pbphoto]

4 hours ago, artto said:

The best example of why I thought Roon was not as good as what I’m used to listening to is because, I really didn’t want to continue listening. The first song on the Marsalis/Clapton album, “Ice Cream” is kind of a cute number for an opener. With Roon, I really couldn’t wait for this to be over. Literally. I skipped forward to a couple of other tracks. Still a no go. Same “feeling” with the other tracks mentioned above.

 

I decided to play these same tracks, from the same PC, same HDMI connection to the NAD M32, but using J River as the player.

LOW AND BEHOLD. Played “Ice Cream” again. This time I didn’t want to turn it off. I wanted to continue listening, to track after track. I think this is what really tells the story. And I would go so far as to say, that if I were still an analog guy, what I heard from Roon is exactly why I would prefer vinyl and keep saying digital isn’t there yet.

 

When listening to Roon, can you post a screen shot or two of your signal path? - it's the colored icon to the left of the previous-track button at the bottom of the Roon app.  

[rplace]

@artto Glad you got it up and running and are finding what works best for you...in the end that is all that matters. Your ears and your room and all that jazz. Both the Roon crowd and Roon developer are pretty over the top on SQ. Would be curious to see what @Thaddeus Smith thinks as he is a long time Roon user as well as HQ player. I find it hard to believe Roon could actually color the sound that much...but like I said your room your ears and you hear what you hear. At least  you tired. I can't help but think there is some expectation bias or confirmation bias at play. Even that does not really matter if it were the case...you like what you like. If a sugar pill makes your headache go away it still worked.

 

You might want to read this about Tidal. I have no dog in the Tidal, MQA, HighRez thing. The take away I got from reading the entire thread is that between a $3,000 dollar streamer and $600 there is no difference when it comes to Tidal. Yes I know money does not always = better sound. But plenty of Lumin love the world around would suggest otherwise. @Shakeydealincluded. I gather form reading between the lines that local FLAC files and CDs will sound better than Tidal on the same equipment. Interesting that you find Tidal your preference. I've got a gazillion local High-Rez, Standard rez, LPs, etc. There is no clear winner. IMO, it is all what version you have. Version = mastering. I've got standard rez Bluenote RVG CDs that sound better then hight rez (high dollar) equivalent, and some where the vinyl sounds better....pre RVG remastering. I've got 200g Classic Record reissues of Led Zeppelin LPs (argued to be the best) that I cannot tell the difference between the 2014 CD remasters.

 

https://community.roonlabs.com/t/blind-test-3000-lumin-d2-with-sbooster-sounds-the-same-as-a-600-bluesound-node/187123/98

 

I'd really be curious to know about Clapton experiment. Was Roon a Tidal MQA (they give you those by default if they have one) version and your PC/Jriver a local FLAC file rip from CD?  Maybe I'm slow at reading but could not really tell when you (paraphrasing) say Roon sounded worst what exactly the playback files were and if they were all the same. My 121,000 local files are all rips form CDs. I don't do any streaming.

 

• CD used as transport only to a quality DAC
• FLAC files ripped form the same CD played through same DAC - not using Roon
• and CD rips played via Roon as long as I don't have DSP applied all sound virtually identical.

So close to the same that I can't walk into the room not knowing and pick out one form the other. I know my system is not resolving enough and my ears are old. That is always one side of the argument. I'm not looking to argue or defend Roon. Just really curious about your results. I can't help but feel it is something in the set up or differences that are yet to be discovered.

 

 

 

 

[pbphoto]

26 minutes ago, rplace said:

I find it hard to believe Roon could actually color the sound that much...

Roon can span the gamut from no-color (the file is sent bit-perfect to the endpoint DAC) to lots of color (SRC, DSP, EQ etc).  His signal path screen shot should tell more of the story.

[rplace]

33 minutes ago, pbphoto said:

When listening to Roon, can you post a screen shot or two of your signal path?

 

Ha, you win the concise award. It took me 5 paragraphs to basically ask the same question...what is his signal path for all. 👍

[rplace]

10 minutes ago, pbphoto said:

Roon can span the gamut from no-color (the file is sent bit-perfect to the endpoint DAC) to lots of color (SRC, DSP, EQ etc).

 

Absolutely agree. Like this...actually from my Lyngdorf not Roon, but the same sort of idea.

 

 

Or this....

 

 

 

 

Not to mention Roon's EQ/DSP/Etc.

 

But nothing really sound what like he is describing.

[Cicerogue]

I was about to post the same screenshots.  Purple dots all the way through is bit perfect.  Green dots indicate some hanky panky with the signal.

[artto]

1 hour ago, pbphoto said:

When listening to Roon, can you post a screen shot or two of your signal path? - it's the colored icon to the left of the previous-track button at the bottom of the Roon app.  

 

Maybe "OS Mixer" at System Output is the problem?

[artto]

I really don't like whatever Klipsch has done with the website - seems very problematic lately.

 

I uploaded the screen shot but it's not showing up. It says I'm past my upload limit. I deleted all of the recent uploads. Somehow it thinks the re-sized JPG file is still 8MB after I re-sized it to 1.7MB

 

FWIW, in plain English it says:

 

Signal path: High Quality

FLAC Source FLAC 44.1kHz 16bit 2ch

 

This PC  Roon Advanced Audio Transport

 

System Output   OS Mixer

 

[artto]

50 minutes ago, Cicerogue said:

I was about to post the same screenshots.  Purple dots all the way through is bit perfect.  Green dots indicate some hanky panky with the signal.

I see green dots

[artto]

1 hour ago, rplace said:

@artto Glad you got it up and running and are finding what works best for you...in the end that is all that matters. Your ears and your room and all that jazz. Both the Roon crowd and Roon developer are pretty over the top on SQ. Would be curious to see what @Thaddeus Smith thinks as he is a long time Roon user as well as HQ player. I find it hard to believe Roon could actually color the sound that much...but like I said your room your ears and you hear what you hear. At least  you tired. I can't help but think there is some expectation bias or confirmation bias at play. Even that does not really matter if it were the case...you like what you like. If a sugar pill makes your headache go away it still worked.

 

You might want to read this about Tidal. I have no dog in the Tidal, MQA, HighRez thing. The take away I got from reading the entire thread is that between a $3,000 dollar streamer and $600 there is no difference when it comes to Tidal. Yes I know money does not always = better sound. But plenty of Lumin love the world around would suggest otherwise. @Shakeydealincluded. I gather form reading between the lines that local FLAC files and CDs will sound better than Tidal on the same equipment. Interesting that you find Tidal your preference. I've got a gazillion local High-Rez, Standard rez, LPs, etc. There is no clear winner. IMO, it is all what version you have. Version = mastering. I've got standard rez Bluenote RVG CDs that sound better then hight rez (high dollar) equivalent, and some where the vinyl sounds better....pre RVG remastering. I've got 200g Classic Record reissues of Led Zeppelin LPs (argued to be the best) that I cannot tell the difference between the 2014 CD remasters.

 

https://community.roonlabs.com/t/blind-test-3000-lumin-d2-with-sbooster-sounds-the-same-as-a-600-bluesound-node/187123/98

 

I'd really be curious to know about Clapton experiment. Was Roon a Tidal MQA (they give you those by default if they have one) version and your PC/Jriver a local FLAC file rip from CD?  Maybe I'm slow at reading but could not really tell when you (paraphrasing) say Roon sounded worst what exactly the playback files were and if they were all the same. My 121,000 local files are all rips form CDs. I don't do any streaming.

 

• CD used as transport only to a quality DAC
• FLAC files ripped form the same CD played through same DAC - not using Roon
• and CD rips played via Roon as long as I don't have DSP applied all sound virtually identical.

So close to the same that I can't walk into the room not knowing and pick out one form the other. I know my system is not resolving enough and my ears are old. That is always one side of the argument. I'm not looking to argue or defend Roon. Just really curious about your results. I can't help but feel it is something in the set up or differences that are yet to be discovered.

 

 

 

 

 

For the comparison I used the same files for both Roon and J River. All were ripped from my CD's using J River, 44.1kHZ FLAC. Tidal was not used for comparison. (actually, only the 10cc track is available on Tidal, the others are not).

[pbphoto]

I can't remember if you said your M32 has the DD BluOS MDC module?  I thought you did but then you mentioned your Win8.1 core is directly connected to the M32 via hdmi.  Can you clarify?

 

Also - when you click on the signal path, do you see a picture (or at least the name) of your M32 at the end of the line?  This would confirm that Roon recognizes your device.

[artto]

33 minutes ago, pbphoto said:

I can't remember if you said your M32 has the DD BluOS MDC module?  I thought you did but then you mentioned your Win8.1 core is directly connected to the M32 via hdmi.  Can you clarify?

 

Also - when you click on the signal path, do you see a picture (or at least the name) of your M32 at the end of the line?  This would confirm that Roon recognizes your device.

My M32 is loaded. BluOS, Analog/phono, HDMI & SPDIF MDC modules installed.

 

The PC (Roon Core) is connected to M32 via HDMI. For Tidal, the Ethernet cable goes straight into the BluOS module.

 

No, M32 is not listed at the end of the Roon Signal Path. OS Mixer is the last line. There are green dots next to OS Mixer and Signal Path High Quality

[rplace]

Roon core does not need to be connected to M32 via HDMI. Put the Roon core (PC) on your networks (wired cat 5 at first), same for M32. Roon will find all your endpoints. Anything you might have like Sonos, Apple Air Play, your NAD. The more you can wire with Cat-5 and not use WiFi the better at first. This will give you the best chance at things just working and not frustrating you by connections issues. Enterprise level switches like DLink and Cisco are also desirable over consumer devices or the one that you get for free with your cable company. You do not need any "audiophile" switches or cables. Save that for a snake oil debate thread.

 

Simplest would be Roon core on computer and NAD on the same switch both with Cat-5. Phone/Tablet via Wifi is perfectly fine. Go to Settings, Audio, find your NAD device. See example below like my NAD T758. On your remote (phone/tablet) running Roon Control, select the NAD. Play something and look at the signal path. I can't remember but I think the NAD will show up as a RAAT device (Roon Advanced Audio Device). Enjoy.

 

 

 

 

 

[artto]

1 hour ago, rplace said:

Roon core does not need to be connected to M32 via HDMI. Put the Roon core (PC) on your networks (wired cat 5 at first), same for M32. Roon will find all your endpoints. Anything you might have like Sonos, Apple Air Play, your NAD. The more you can wire with Cat-5 and not use WiFi the better at first. This will give you the best chance at things just working and not frustrating you by connections issues. Enterprise level switches like DLink and Cisco are also desirable over consumer devices or the one that you get for free with your cable company. You do not need any "audiophile" switches or cables. Save that for a snake oil debate thread.

 

Simplest would be Roon core on computer and NAD on the same switch both with Cat-5. Phone/Tablet via Wifi is perfectly fine. Go to Settings, Audio, find your NAD device. See example below like my NAD T758. On your remote (phone/tablet) running Roon Control, select the NAD. Play something and look at the signal path. I can't remember but I think the NAD will show up as a RAAT device (Roon Advanced Audio Device). Enjoy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

OK. Thanks!

 

What I have right now is the Comcast supplied Router. It has four Ethernet ports. One of those ports is wired to (what I call, or used to be called a "Hub") in my office where the Hub is Ethernet to my two office PC, a network printer, and my wife's office PC. One of the other Router ports has Ethernet going to the M32 BluOS Ethernet port. The office PC's & printer via Ethernet are almost never in use (ie: PC are in Sleep mode) while I'm listening music, streaming or otherwise.

 

If I'm understanding this correctly, I need to run a second Ethernet cable from the Router to the laptop PC in the music room. OR, can I use the same (one) Ethernet cable from the Router into the music room and have an Ethernet switch in the music room/equipment racks to feed the data signal to both the laptop and BluOS? In other words is it better to have the switch at the Router end or at the receiving end?

 

Quite honestly, I don't understand why an outboard switch would be any better than just using the ports on the Router. The switch has to be connected to one of the Router ports anyway.

[rplace]

For our discussion Hub = Switch. It just lets you have more cables connected. Also for this discussion you are probably fine with the hub your currently have. The more you ask of Roon the better your network needs to be. BTW, Router is what gets you to the Internet. Router with Ports on it is basically a router + hub/switch. They can be separate, but for consumer stuff from cable company they typically have 4.

 

So yes if it is easy and you don't need the work PC or printer while testing, just hook Roon Core (your laptop running Roon core correct?) and NAD to your hub both with their own cat-5 cable. Core and Endpoint (NAD) will talk to each other. Use Phone/Tablet via WiFi or PC app on laptop to enable the NAD. Gear = enabled in my post above. Blue Enable button means it is not yet enabled. Until you enable an endpoint you can use it. Just to put a fine point on it Core and NAD are not connected to each other. They are connected to the network.

 

Once that is done, check your signal path and report back if all purple or some different colors. You can click on each colored dot to see more about it. I would expect to see only three dots and all purple if all goes well. Screen shots will help. Delete of photos and make sure you upload the resized photo....apologies if that sounds too basic. But worth stating the obvious sometimes. If you have a phone/tablet and do a screen shot of the signal path it should be in the KBs not MBs.

 

HTH,

-Rich

[pbphoto]

You want to see Roon recognize the M32 at the end of the line with an IP address as rplace's screenshot shows above with his NAD T758.  Your music tests that you found irritating were done with the OS Mixer at the end of the line - meaning your Window 8.1 laptop was performing a lot of fuckery with the sound.

[artto]

Thanks Guys!

 

So, if I'm understanding this correctly (another Duh moment), the BluOS MDC module is basically just a Network Interface Card (NIC). The PC and M32 (via BluOS card) are connected together using a good old fashioned pier to pier network like in the old days (just connect 2 computers together with an Ethernet cable). Essentially, the Ethernet cables are replacing what would otherwise be interconnect cables (RCA or XLR) or HDMI, TOSLINK, etc.