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Adding EQ with La Scala's


svberger

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Curiosity had me sort of hoping OP would try it at very low levels just so we can get some real world data from the experiment. Of course you would need to find some material that had enough content down that low and then switch the device back and forth between "C-48" and "filter only" positions while listening. My guess is it will just sound boomy and ruin the tight low distortion bass region the La Scala is good at.

 

20Hz sine wave in air is something like 17 meters long. The folded horn is not designed for this frequency.

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Not going to quote all the great replies to the thread over the last couple of hours, but I thank all of you for chiming in.

 

As I've indicated pretty clearly, I think, I'm not looking to increase the bass of the LS's. The question of using this spare piece of gear that I got to use with a pair of Allison One's(which I still have but alas are not using at the moment) was simply to get the opinions that I got. I would never go out and buy any sort of EQ, but since I own it just wanted to throw the idea of using it out there. I have, the people have spoken, and I'm done discussing it.

 

A horn loaded sub is something that I'm curious about, again not because I feel I'm missing anything, but rather because the concept is one that I haven't heard before and would like to hear what that sounds like. I'm am most definitely not a DIY'er, so unless an already built one came up for a decent price that itch probably won't get scratched.

 

I do have a local friend who buys and sells used audio and whom I got my Cornwall's(among many other things over the years) from. He has several sub's available and is getting a list together for me so that I can research them, and also present them here to see if any of them might be at least worth trying out.

 

RE: turning the bass control up. Sure, I don't mind doing that, but usually there is no need. I just started using a McIntosh MX110z pre with my MC30's, and it has a rather robust loudness option. Especially when listening to various radio, or really anything at lower volumes I've been using and enjoying it. When the volume is up, I disengage it and turn the bass up a couple notches and things sound absolutely glorious.

 

Again, thanks everybody for your thoughts/advice. Much appreciated as always.

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44 minutes ago, svberger said:

A horn loaded sub is something that I'm curious about, again not because I feel I'm missing anything, but rather because the concept is one that I haven't heard before and would like to hear

You absolutely should. I'll warn you, don't hear it until you are ready to buy. You will have to have one if you hear it blended well with someone that has a clue. If you can pick the sub out easily and it isn't blended, that person did not implement it well.... It can be subtle until calls upon at which point it can head towards violent if you like and bring enough power... 

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Read what you said about what type of music you often listen and that you aren't lacking bass and so on and so forth. I'll put it this way... My JBL 4722N speakers do 40 Hz +/- 3 dB in free space.   They are currently corner loaded, obviously in a room... My subs are crossed at 40 hz.  As soon as they come on with ANY music or movie, they are almost always called upon and appreciated.   They add to the experience and one would never know subs were on with a blindfold unless I turned them up... Which is easy to do... 

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22 hours ago, svberger said:

I knew I'd confuse people with this thread, and that was not my meaning. I have this device, and was considering experimenting with it. That's all. I just didn't want to hurt the speakers in using it and that's why I asked the original question. Guess I should've been clearer.

 

My original statement stands. The speakers to my ears are fine as is. More then fine. I'm perfectly happy to live with the bass as is.

 

I have stuff and I like to experiment sometimes.

 

There, hopefully that will clear that up.

Ok, as always, here comes my very cheap and unfortunately further devalued 2 cents due to inflation.
I know, svberger, that you are satisfied with the sound of your Lascala. So it's more a comment than a suggestion.
I fitted my Lascala, also from 1977, with new internal wiring 16 years ago, Kimber 4TC. 

 

Like here (at that time still with an ALK xover)

 

This may not have been necessary but as part of an overall cosmetic restoration I did it, especially as all the electronics and drivers were removed for the restoration anyway. 

Originally, the underbody is sealed with a sticky tar compound. 16 years ago, some of this compound was still liquid. After wiring and reinstalling the woofer, I screwed the base plate back into place without doing more, at least I thought it was sealed again which I think, it was because it was a bit liquid.

When I reactivated my Lascala more than a year ago, I restored much of it to its original condition as best I could. But unscrewing the base plate 16 years ago has not left me in peace. I always thought that the bass could play with a very little more energy. At least that's how I remembered it from the time before I stored them away.
Then I stumbled across other threads here in the forum where people had resealed their Lascala after repairs and so on.
So I did the same 5 months ago or so. I used a similar tape to this one with a link to an American dealer:

 

https://www.parts-express.com/Speaker-Gasketing-Tape-1-8-x-1-2-x-50-ft.-Roll-260-542

 

When I loosened the base plate again for this purpose, the first impression was that this tar compound, which Klipsch originally used, was completely hardened and brittle after 44 years. It was almost certainly no longer an airtight seal. And the Lascala absolutely! needs an airtight seal for the horn to work properly.
Now I can't say whether this happened because I had loosened the base plate 16 years ago, or because independently of this, this tar compound simply no longer seals smoothly and flexibly due to the long years, regardless if the plate was removed or not.

 

It is very easy to loosen the screws, but you have to loosen the base plate with a lot of feeling with the help of wide screwdrivers or better with even wider chisels.

The tar mass, when it is crumbly and dried out, makes a big mess on the floor, so it is better to lay out some paper first. I used a spatula to straighten out the excess tar a bit, but it doesn't need to be removed perfectly because the new sealing tape that will be applied further in will do the job of sealing anyway.
I had a piece stuck under my slippers and I messed up three rooms, to the delight of my wife. When I cleaned the smears on the wooden floor, I had to use some Isopropanol for hours but that's just by the way.

Now for the result. As you know, I like to appreciate subtle little changes, but sometimes psycho-acoustically they can have a very positive effect on the overall experience of the sound. It can change the "whole" which, as you know, is more than the sum of its parts.

In fact, I experience a difference in sound that is not just imagined because I was sweating and my knees hurt.
The Lascala plays subjectively "deeper", as if it were tuned a little differently. As a side effect, the articulation is also better in the high bass frequencies, where the bass joins the squaker. E.g. male voices, a trombone, etc.

It might be worth a try to check if the very old tar mass is still doing its job well or not.

Of course, physically, the Lascala does not play lower than its construction allows. But my impression is that it plays less deep when the doghouse is not 100% sealed. And this difference can create exactly the impression of whether the ear is even more satisfied.

 

Don´t be confused, you must not remove the woofer. I did it only because the quarter felt stripes shrunk over the years and I added some felt to seal the gaps as well.

 

 

IMG_9716.JPG

IMG_9717.JPG

IMG_9715.JPG

Edited by KT88
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13 minutes ago, KT88 said:

Ok, as always, here comes my very cheap and unfortunately further devalued 2 cents due to inflation.
I know, svberger, that you are satisfied with the sound of your Lascala. So it's more a comment than a suggestion.
I fitted my Lascala, also from 1977, with new internal wiring 16 years ago, Kimber 4TC. 

 

Like here (at that time still with an ALK xover)

 

This may not have been necessary but as part of an overall cosmetic restoration I did it, especially as all the electronics and drivers were removed for the restoration anyway. 

Originally, the underbody is sealed with a sticky tar compound. 16 years ago, some of this compound was still liquid. After wiring and reinstalling the woofer, I screwed the base plate back into place without doing more, at least I thought it was sealed again which I think, it was because it was a bit liquid.

When I reactivated my Lascala more than a year ago, I restored much of it to its original condition as best I could. But unscrewing the base plate 16 years ago has not left me in peace. I always thought that the bass could play with a very little more energy. At least that's how I remembered it from the time before I stored them away.
Then I stumbled across other threads here in the forum where people had resealed their Lascala after repairs and so on.
So I did the same 5 months ago or so. I used a similar tape to this one with a link to an American dealer:

 

https://www.parts-express.com/Speaker-Gasketing-Tape-1-8-x-1-2-x-50-ft.-Roll-260-542

 

When I loosened the base plate again for this purpose, the first impression was that this tar compound, which Klipsch originally used, was completely hardened and brittle after 44 years. It was almost certainly no longer an airtight seal. And the Lascala absolutely! needs an airtight seal for the horn to work properly.
Now I can't say whether this happened because I had loosened the base plate 16 years ago, or because independently of this, this tar compound simply no longer seals smoothly and flexibly due to the long years, regardless if the plate was removed or not.

 

It is very easy to loosen the screws, but you have to loosen the base plate with a lot of feeling with the help of wide screwdrivers or better with even wider chisels.

The tar mass, when it is crumbly and dried out, makes a big mess on the floor, so it is better to lay out some paper first. I used a spatula to straighten out the excess tar a bit, but it doesn't need to be removed perfectly because the new sealing tape that will be applied further in will do the job of sealing anyway.
I had a piece stuck under my slippers and I messed up three rooms, to the delight of my wife. When I cleaned the smears on the wooden floor, I had to use some Isopropanol for hours but that's just by the way.

Now for the result. As you know, I like to appreciate subtle little changes, but sometimes psycho-acoustically they can have a very positive effect on the overall experience of the sound. It can change the "whole" which, as you know, is more than the sum of its parts.

In fact, I experience a difference in sound that is not just imagined because I was sweating and my knees hurt.
The Lascala plays subjectively "deeper", as if it were tuned a little differently. As a side effect, the articulation is also better in the high bass frequencies, where the bass joins the squaker. E.g. male voices, a trombone, etc.

It might be worth a try to check if the very old tar mass is still doing its job well or not.

Of course, physically, the Lascala does not play lower than its construction allows. But my impression is that it plays less deep when the doghouse is not 100% sealed. And this difference can create exactly the impression of whether the ear is even more satisfied.

 

Don´t be confused, you must not remove the woofer. I did it only because the quarter felt stripes shrunk over the years and I added some felt to seal the gaps as well.

 

 

IMG_9716.JPG

IMG_9717.JPG

IMG_9715.JPG

More power to you, my friend. I would never have the patience nor skill that you obviously possess to take on a task like this. Your suggestion to remove the tweeter protection diodes and magnetic screws was about as far as I would go in terms of messing about with these speakers. The only other thing that I'm considering other then the possible experimentation with a sub is getting some crossovers from Crites since they're an easy swap in. Other then that, these speakers will remain as is.

 

But as always, I thank you for your comments.

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On 2/22/2022 at 12:36 PM, svberger said:

I knew I'd confuse people with this thread, and that was not my meaning. I have this device, and was considering experimenting with it. That's all. I just didn't want to hurt the speakers in using it and that's why I asked the original question. Guess I should've been clearer.

 

My original statement stands. The speakers to my ears are fine as is. More then fine. I'm perfectly happy to live with the bass as is.

 

I have stuff and I like to experiment sometimes.

 

There, hopefully that will clear that up.

As long as you can monitor your power output, which will still be less than 100 watts at low frequencies, you should be OK.  Experiment carefully and let us know how it works out.

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17 hours ago, Westcoastdrums said:

You absolutely should. I'll warn you, don't hear it until you are ready to buy. You will have to have one if you hear it blended well with someone that has a clue. If you can pick the sub out easily and it isn't blended, that person did not implement it well.... It can be subtle until calls upon at which point it can head towards violent if you like and bring enough power... 

A THT or THTLP seldom, if ever,  needs more than 10 watts for normal listening with a LaScala.

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On 2/22/2022 at 1:33 PM, Bubo said:

Putting wings on a boat

 

LaScala is not designed for bass below 50HZ

I added a front firing sub as an experiment

I seldom feel the need to use it

 

LaScalas offer the finest human voice reproduction in the industry, IMHO

Forcing the LaScala lower may damage the speakers.

I would never do it

Unless you upgrade your woofer to a K-43 or an Eminence Kappa 15C, you only have the Second or Third Finest reproducer of the Human Voice.

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20 hours ago, Curious_George said:

The piece of equipment clearly states it was designed for Allison Speaker systems, not LaScala’s. You can experiment, as you indicated, but the LaScala will not benefit from that low of boost. 
 

Try it and report back what you observed. 

I heard Khorns that were EQ'd flat to 20 hz. from my Dealer, but that was a long, long time ago. Same K33 woofer as the LaScala. I still say, just try it with CAUTION, then let us know whose advice to pass on.

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1 hour ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

I heard Khorns that were EQ'd flat to 20 hz. from my Dealer, but that was a long, long time ago. Same K33 woofer as the LaScala. I still say, just try it with CAUTION, then let us know whose advice to pass on.

That's interesting. Maybe I will try it.

 

With a great amount of CAUTION.

 

 

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1 hour ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

As long as you can monitor your power output, which will still be less than 100 watts at low frequencies, you should be OK.  Experiment carefully and let us know how it works out.

I should be at way less then 100 watts. I'm using 30 watt amps(benched at 40, but still...) I'm not really all that concerned about doing anything bad to the speakers.

 

I wonder if sonically there is any difference between the A and AA crossover. I'm guessing it will be easier to hear the difference in old and new crossover simply because of the caps.

 

We shall see.

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4 hours ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

Unless you upgrade your woofer to a K-43 or an Eminence Kappa 15C, you only have the Second or Third Finest reproducer of the Human Voice.

 

Expand on this, first reason I have heard to change anything

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On 2/22/2022 at 12:36 PM, svberger said:

I knew I'd confuse people with this thread, and that was not my meaning. I have this device, and was considering experimenting with it. That's all. I just didn't want to hurt the speakers in using it and that's why I asked the original question. ......

 

Give it a try.  A La Scala is, in fact, a high-quality sealed box system.  But the excursion needed to produce 20 Hz will cause a lot of distortion if you push it.  14 dB is 25x more power than the unequalized range. 

 

A better choice would be a programmable parametric eq.  Set it to about +3 at 60 Hz, +6 at 50 Hz, +10 at 40 Hz and cut off hard below 40 Hz.  There is not much music below E1, 41.2 Hz.  Though a piano goes down to 27.5.

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1 hour ago, JohnA said:

 

Give it a try.  A La Scala is, in fact, a high-quality sealed box system.  But the excursion needed to produce 20 Hz will cause a lot of distortion if you push it.  14 dB is 25x more power than the unequalized range. 

 

A better choice would be a programmable parametric eq.  Set it to about +3 at 60 Hz, +6 at 50 Hz, +10 at 40 Hz and cut off hard below 40 Hz.  There is not much music below E1, 41.2 Hz.  Though a piano goes down to 27.5.

I generally don't care for EQ's. I happen to have the ESW because a guy I know who used to deal in Allison speakers was emptying out his closet and basically gave it to me. 

 

What some folks have indicated about their subs in that much of the time they didn't even know if it was off or on is much the same experience I've and most others have had with this unit with Allison and AR speakers. Barely know it's there much of the time(I've had to test it myself to see if it was properly inserted in the tape loop) and then every so often I'll get a deeper rumble on a piece of music that I was familiar with but had never heard go that deep. In other words, the unit is extremely subtle, much like a good sub. And since I'm not using much power I doubt there's going to much, if any , additional exertion placed on the woofers. 

 

Got it in there now, and if notice anything out of the ordinary I'll make some comments.

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2 hours ago, Bubo said:

 

Expand on this, first reason I have heard to change anything

I used my LaScalas with subs about 15 years ago. When I upgraded to MWMs bass, I took the K-43's out of the MWMs and put them in the LaScala. I heard a much better midrange Details (guitar, voice, piano, drums, etc.). Later I discovered the Eminence Kappa 15C after simulation and actual purchase. They were a real bargain at the time and I told everyone here to use those woofers, which had an extra +4 db of output at 400 Hz., which was similar to the K43's higher BL product, the Root Cause of the improvement in that band.

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20 hours ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

I heard Khorns that were EQ'd flat to 20 hz. from my Dealer, but that was a long, long time ago. Same K33 woofer as the LaScala. I still say, just try it with CAUTION, then let us know whose advice to pass on.

Hey there Claude , enjoy your posts . I’ve been running my Khorns full range sending all LFE to them for 20 years now , and have never heard any sign of distress  from the bass bins . And they are frequently  played  at very high levels  ,they seem to be up to the task ,( LFE can add as much as 10 db  boost in bass) Subwoofers aren’t usually needed for my music  , but one switch turns them on for movies, I sleep good at  night knowing that I’ve sent as much bass as possible to PWK’s folded horns ,and left the least amount of bass to be reproduced by speakers that are likely less capable, the Lascala may work similarly  🤓

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On 2/22/2022 at 8:54 PM, svberger said:

I do have a local friend who buys and sells used audio and whom I got my Cornwall's(among many other things over the years) from. He has several sub's available and is getting a list together for me so that I can research them, and also present them here to see if any of them might be at least worth trying out.

 

So here's what's available to me for now, at least to audition:

 

REL R328

REL T 5i

Klipsch RSW 15

Earthquake Supernova MKV

 

All in good shape, only 1 of each.

 

I'm leaning toward the T 5i but I'm open to any of them. Is there any point in getting one of each for stereo, or not unless they're the same?

 

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