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Reproducing strings


VDS

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Hi,

I'm wondering if anyone has found a way to get the tone of violins/cellos out of Klipsch?  My modified Cornwalls, and MEH 402’s both do so many things so good, even orchestral works, but I cannot get the tone or articulation needed to reproduce solo strings or string quartets.  They all have a somewhat metallic sound, and not much of the body of the violin/cello comes through.  It’s not bad, but it’s not exceptional.

wondering if this is something not suited to horns/compression drivers?


I love the sound of both speakers, the dynamics are so important to me, but looking to really hear the sound of the wood in a violin.

I have my equipment listed in profile, I don’t think electronics are the problem, but who knows. 
move heard some people say Klipsch are not for strings, but maybe they’re using a k77 still, (screech!)

just wondering if anybody has achieved this. 
possibly looking at Harbeth, Tannoy, Magnepan as a second pair for listening to string quartets only.

Ted.

 

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I have a theory about this, it has more to do with placement and presentation. PWK himself was very much a classical music listener and of course stringed instruments are a key component of the sound. I have personally found that Klipsch speakers are quite accurate with the overall sound of strings, but what can be missing is the presentation. Stringed instruments of this type played live are generally not running through a sound reinforcement system - the sound is omni directional. Klipsch  like most speakers are directional, so your placement in a room makes a big difference. I have been using Ohms for several years as my front mains and find them generally superior for this type of music. Superior in presentation as they radiate more in the manner of the live instrument, not overall tonal or detail accuracy.Getting a wider sound stage with your Klipsch will eliminate some of the directionality. Having the horns straighter rather than toed in made a difference for me in my listening room. As I mentioned just a theory.

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String sound with Klipsch:

 

It's hard to know what the variables are, so I'll just describe our set-up and the result.

 

I played in 5 orchestras and ate lunch in front of one in rehearsal, often   (average position, 10th row).  Yes, I frequently stopped chewing to listen more carefully.  Through our Klipschorns and Belle Klipsch center, with Audyssey Flat EQ, it seems to depend on the recording.  Our models of these speakers are stock and use the K33E woofers, K55X mid drivers, K401 mid horns, and K77F Tweeters flush mounted on the baffle board.  The room is treated; has wall to wall carpet, 5 seat couch, absorbers, diffusors pArtScience 3 inch SpaceArray Diffusor 2 x 2 foot Wood Panel (2-pack)pArtScience 3 inch SpaceArray Diffusor 2 x 2 foot Wood Panel (2-pack), bookshelves and diffusing pottery and artifacts.  image.png.c07f93e3a09d6b6dd5c82661edc3a316.png

image.png.da1281ebce762b095179eda2e4c957e6.png

image.png.16d783d9e91f6170106c9bfb8d698b13.png

 

About 30% of strings seem fine, the rest, less so.  My Paganini collection is wonderful.  Some Yo-Yo Ma is terrific, one collection is lacking in treble, of all things.

 

Most other string recordings (40%?) are passable; always chrystal clear, highly detailed in a way, but, as you say, lacking in the wood sound, and a certain beauty in the rosin facilitated friction. (Note: virtually all brass and percussion are nearly perfect).

 

About 30% are lacking: harsh, seem too closely mic'd.  More often a problem on older CDs than on other media.

 

Massed strings are now good, with room treatment and Audyssey.  It took me decades to get this right, failing with ADC, EV, Ampex, JBL, and Klipsch speakers.  A friend and I had seen Ben-Hur (1959) in 70mm six track magnetic sound at 22.5 ips.  The Prelude, played before the curtains opened had what seemed to me to have a perfect massed string sound.   I later found out the studio had EQ'd the Prelude for transmission through the curtains (even though this was a re-release -- those were the days!).  I didn't know what to call the fricative sound of the many string players; my friend said, "I thought that was a scraping sound that only high school orchestras made."  He had rarely heard a live orchestra up close, so I told him I had heard it many times, but, true, it was rarely captured on a recording.  I played the Prelude at home (when it finally came out on Rhino-- the "soundtrack" Lp,

which never called itself "soundtrack," but had the big stone letters, turned out to be a fake).  So, I used the VHS, then the Rhino album, then the DVD, then the Blu-ray of the real soundtrack, and only recently reproduced the massed strings properly.  Audyssey Flat may have made the difference, and other recordings of massed strings now sound good, as well.

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garyrc above has made an excellent point.

I also have more experience with direct radiator speakers than horns, and found that many of them like better ATCs above or Harbeths and Tannoys do well presentation of wood instruments. Even a pair of Italian Opera Primas that I have in smaller room do that very realistically in a good room.

 

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Looking at your system profile, I'd say the culprit isn't there.

 

I do agree with @YK Thom , placement is crucial. Although firing horns directly at your listening position can make some recordings more present and exciting, poor recordings can be fatiguing. I have found that listening off axis to horns gives a more natural presentation of instruments and can improve the body and fullness of the sound. I have my LS IIs only slightly toed in and sit about 12 ft. away from the plane of the speakers. I'm not sure about your placement, but it's something you can try if you haven't already.

 

 

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I dont think clocking the speakers will add body... but it definitely can improve the overall sound stage and directivity issues based around fatigue.

What has worked for, and against me, was the selection of amplification topology.

I dont see your equipment listed in the first post?

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My 2 cents. The truth lies somewhere in the middle. I listen to a lot of life music without amplification, our youngest daughter, 21, has been playing the violin since she was 5. She has practiced at home for many years. She has a beautiful instrument and a well intonated sound in her fingers. Unlike most "hi-fi" speakers, the LaScala realizes much more characteristics of sound with greater authenticity when I record my daughter's playing. Most people who know violins only from recordings through hi-fi speakers with this soft sound are shocked when they hear how much expression and dynamics a violin has...how loud it can be and how much expressive harshness is possible as well as a nice warm melting tone. Most people only know the warm melting sound, but a violin can be very aggressive and expressive at the appropriate point in the piece of music, to the point of intended pain in the ear.

The Lascala reproduces all these characteristics very originally. And yes, I have the original K77 Alnico, but also a Jubilee.

Nevertheless, the point of the OP is also relevant for me. Violin or string quartet sounds just very wonderful round, coherent and with a lot of richness of colors of the wood with my Stirling Broadcast LS3/6 BBC type speakers. The sound gets an additional component that I would call spatial emotionality. The wood of the violin breathes and it is with a real quickness, hence the thin-wall philosophy, with bitumen panels inside, of the BBC from which Harbeth also is a later follow up company like SB, Graham Audio or Spendor just to name some of those who are existing still today. (BTW if one has only been used to listen to „conventional“ speakers, be prepared if you listen to BBC design which are not really „conventional“ in conception even if they look so.

 

I also have a 1993 Tannoy Canterbury Alnico, so not a bad guy in the line up from Tannoy, but for strings the Stirling Broadcast is just in another league. I won't say that's because the Tannoy also has a tweeter horn, but in that respect it's closer to the Klipsch.

I also have old Quad ESL 57 electrostats, they are wonderful for violin...but not for reproducing the vivid vibrations and timbres of the wood...they are better for the delicate reproduction of the violin's strings.

Well, the SB LS3/6 has comparable dispersion characteristics to the Lascala, so that can't account for the difference.
I believe as a personal guess it is related to what types of sound production of nature is reproduced by which loudspeaker principle.
Voices and wind instruments, for example, are produced with the help of compression. Both sound shockingly good over Lascala or KHorn. A string is not a sound produced by compression. It has a generation component like the fingernail in classical guitar or the felt hammer in piano. Or even the bowing, which is sometimes part of the sound modulation as in the violin. And unique to the violin is the permanent sound excitation of the string compared to guitar or piano.

 

Perhaps it is the case that an albeit good horn shifts the proportions of the components of the sound somewhat towards those of the sound production and at the same time somewhat underrepresents the component of the violin's resonating body. At least, its vivid richness of timbre to my ears is best realized in the BBC cabinet designs, which paradoxically are among the "deadest" cabinets because they dissipate unwanted vibrations the fastest due to the thin wall and bitumen panel technology.

 

 

 

 

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13 hours ago, tromprof said:

Maybe you just have good ears and iffy recordings

Ha, I think bad ears and some bad recordings.  I do find classical recordings in general are all over the place. I spend a lot of time on Qobuz sampling different recordings!

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I’m in the process of building new cabinets for my 402’s, (going from vertical to horizontal). When back in room my plan is to spend time positioning and listening more off access. Positioning is one thing I haven’t explored much.

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I found this old Klipschorn (AK4) sweep w/ Audyssey.  I don't see anything here (frequency-wise) that I'd think would rob violins of their wood sound -- could be wrong.  I assume the 43Hz peak is a room anomaly.

I will give the Haydn a listen tomorrow, through this horn and its mate, and post my impression.image.png.c2df447cd8970892a5693dd836e94a82.png

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This is a job for Mr. Fourier.

 

The ideal way to figure this out isn't guessing, it's a matter of finding which part of the timbre is missing or accentuated. Find a recording of say a solo Cello, preferably a sample with a single note held as long as possible. An instructional video or something along those lines might be what to look for. Even if the note played is only a measure you can put it on a loop in the recording software program. Pretty much all of these digital recording software programs have an FFT analyzer and this is what will help you find the missing pieces. Play the recording and view the timbre in the software via the FFT analyzer. Keep a screenshot of this profile. Now play the Cello through your system and use a mic to record the speaker output. Now run that through the same recording software with the FFT analyzer and compare the two.

 

http://www.eecs.qmul.ac.uk/~simond/pub/2011/Chudy-Dixon-GfKl-2011.pdf

 

 

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I finally listened to the Haydn that Shiva posted from Youtube.  It  sounded excellent over our Klipschorns, violins just a tiny tad bright, cello marvelous, and somewhat "woody."  The 2.5 dB bump at 450 Hz doesn't show, as far as I can tell, unless as "wood."
image.png.c2df447cd8970892a5693dd836e94a82.png

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First, let me share my credentials with you.

 

I’ve made many recordings over the past 30+ years of “acoustic” music (voice and instruments) for the Glen Ellyn – Wheaton Chorale. Initially, these recordings were made live-in-concert, which in itself presents many logistical problems for using ideal microphone type and placement. In later years I was able to record at rehearsal prior to concert, primarily so I could master and produce some quantity of CDs for sale at concerts. All of these recordings have taken place in various churches, but in recent years at College Church, Wheaton, Illinois, which is known for its fine acoustics for Chorale music. The Chorale was always accompanied by a grand piano (Steinway), and guest musicians/singers. This might be a children’s choir with hand bells, or a trio of harps, string quartet, chamber orchestra, jazz band, etc. Also a smaller ensemble group from the Chorale.

 

The first thing I suggest you do is Google “recording a violin”, or “Why does my violin recording sound so bad”. You’ll find that virtually anyone who plays violin, and has tried to record themselves absolutely hates the way they sound.

 

For me, getting that woody sound, the texture, timbre of a violin, without the edginess, is probably one of the most difficult sounds to record and get right. Unfortunately, for me, I didn’t have the liberty to experiment and listen to playback before making any commitment to “the sound”. It was basically hit and miss, learn a little bit each time, as you go. I’ve used many mic techniques, everything from simple two spaced mics, three main mics, mutli-mic/mutli-track, and combinations thereof.

 

Now a little bit about commercial recordings from small and big labels. Obviously, they have much bigger budgets with better equipment and more time, and experience than I do. However, for the most part, many of these “professional” recordings have similar characteristics. For one, (and IMO this IS a BIG deal), the “perspective” they present is more often than not, that of the conductor. It’s more like what they hear than what we hear sitting in the audience. Consider a recording technique like the well-known “Decca tree”. It’s a simple three (sometimes more) mic pickup. But where are the mics located? In a triangle “tree” held above the orchestra or above the conductor’s podium. There’s a big difference in this “sound” compared to where we sit in the audience.

 

Then there’s the problem with multi-mics. These might be fill-in mics, or an array of multiple mics placed much closer to the instruments. Why would one do this? Well, if it’s a “live” concert or an older concert hall built before we had all the noise pollution, the mics might need to be placed closer to the source to avoid picking up audience noise or traffic noise for instance. Great for signal to noise ratio, not so good for sound quality – at least as we audiophiles expect it.

 

All of that being said, I must admit that personally, I pretty much hate the sound of violins. 🤢😀There are very few violinists that I can say I really admire and listen to. Itzhak Perlman, Issac Stern, Anne Sophie Mutter to a name a few. What I’m saying is that there’s also some musicianship involved here. The second chair violinists are probably not producing sound of the same caliber as that of the aforementioned violinists. Add to that the most commonly used mic techniques, and the closeness of the mics to the performers, it easily compounds the sound quality problem.

 

For recordings I listen to, I prefer the older, simpler two or three spaced mic technique used in the early Mercury Living Presence or RCA Living Stereo. Telarc also adapted this in their early digital recordings. Prof. Keith O. Johnson of Reference Recordings has made wonderful recordings. Also take a look at the library from BIS/Sweden.

 

I think it’s also important to seek out the best rooms where these kinds of music/instruments/vocals are recorded. For example. I’ve discovered that many of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra recordings I love best were made at Chicago Medinah Temple, not Orchestra Hall (as may sometimes be misquoted).

 

As a side note, I should also mention that often recordings that I’ve made that sound good on my system, are not necessarily all that listenable in a car, for instance. If I did whatever I need to do to make them more appealing in a car or on the radio it would most certainly compromise the dynamic range and sound quality (as I, and probably you prefer it).

 

If all else fails – use the tone control!!!!!! You, as the listener, have literally no control over what the recording engineer did, mixing and mastering engineer did, the musician’s abilities, or where/how the recording was made. There is no such thing as “purist” here. Don’t be afraid to use the treble control to dial it down a bit, or a lot. Even boosting bass can alleviate some of that violin edginess.

 

https://gewchorale.org/

 

https://www.renkus-heinz.com/application/chicagos-college-church-offers-a-landmark-ic-squared-installation/

 

https://bis.se/contact

 

https://referencerecordings.com/

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5 hours ago, artto said:

Don’t be afraid to use the treble control to dial it down a bit, or a lot. Even boosting bass can alleviate some of that violin edginess.

This often works for me.  Actually, I try a slight bass boost first.  To my ears and brain, slight edginess may be largely a matter of balance.  If that doesn't work, then the treble control.

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