Audyssey , do you use it?

[ClaudeJ1]

1 hour ago, mopardave said:

Thanks. Have been thinking a center channel would be an improvement.  ill look at this RC-64 you mention.   I think a center is all that is needed at this point, although the phantom center is good.

You need center for movies and TV dialog. Also if you want to try one of my Bear boxes, I have a few extras.

[mopardave]

19 hours ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

You need center for movies and TV dialog. Also if you want to try one of my Bear boxes, I have a few extras.

What is a Bear Box?

[ClaudeJ1]

1 hour ago, mopardave said:

What is a Bear Box?

https://www.amazon.com/Nobsound-Fully-balanced-Single-ended-Pre-amplifier-Controller/dp/B07255VHZS/ref=sr_1_11?keywords=nobsound+little+bear&qid=1650208770&sr=8-11

 

To knock down the effective Gain of your Power amp to a target -12 to -20 db, if power amp does not have front end potentiometers. This places the Operating Window of the Audyssey correction into an output level that it's used to "hearing" when it does the room eq sweeps. It's as important as a single mike reading to get a successful "systems approach."

[Dave MacKay]

On 4/15/2022 at 5:59 PM, ClaudeJ1 said:

I switched to Yamaha Pre Pro's (CX-A series) about 8 years ago. So I have their YPAO room correction which does NOT affect dynamics at all. As a matter of fact, I use the older 5000 model with my all horn setup downstairs as 2.1 and it sounds fantastic, with unbelievable dynamics on recordings that have dynamics. I worked my way up the Onkyo line with Audyssey years before culmination in their top of the line version, but rather than "cheap out" with AVR's going the Pre Pro route that cost way more the AVR's was the key. With their XLR connections, they can achieve 8 volt output and drive low gain power amps on horns, which is part of the "secret sauce" in maintaining low noise and wide dynamic range.

 

It may be that the YPAO capability is differentiated (gets better) as one goes up Yamaha's product line. My experience with a lower-end Yamaha receiver has been that YPAO improves performance above 1 kHZ but significantly impairs bass performance (below about 150 Hz). 

 

Here's a link to the post where I shared what I measured (red line on chart uses YPAO settings; the blue line on chart is "pure direct"):

 

[ClaudeJ1]

14 hours ago, Dave MacKay said:

 

It may be that the YPAO capability is differentiated (gets better) as one goes up Yamaha's product line. My experience with a lower-end Yamaha receiver has been that YPAO improves performance above 1 kHZ but significantly impairs bass performance (below about 150 Hz). 

 

Here's a link to the post where I shared what I measured (red line on chart uses YPAO settings; the blue line on chart is "pure direct"):

 

You are correct in assuming that the $3,000 Yamaha Pre-Pro I'm using does a better job with the PEQ's and Time Delays, since AVR electronics are "dumbed down" versions of what is in the top of the line electronics. But that is NOT the Main Problem here.

 

However, most of your problems are because of bad speaker and chair placement. In other words you have ACOUSTIC problems which should be solved ACOUSTICALLY first and foremost. Driver polarity is the worst "bark at the wrong tree," so to speak.

 

Best place for your LaScalas are in the room Corners toed in 30 degrees. Best place for your THT's are Front and Rear Wall Centers. The best place for flattest bass in the room after moving the cabinets is to move your seats smack dab in the room CENTER, which will also yield a 60 degree subtended angle for Imaging the LS. All that will reamain as the "icing on the cake" after that will be YPAO Room EQ to flatten things out Further. If your electronics can also automatically add Time Delays on the LaScalas to line up with the horn Subs (6-7 milliseconds) you'll be pretty close to "perfect," or at the very least Full Optimization of your Sound Output.

[Dave MacKay]

2 hours ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

You are correct in assuming that the $3,000 Yamaha Pre-Pro I'm using does a better job with the PEQ's and Time Delays, since AVR electronics are "dumbed down" versions of what is in the top of the line electronics. But that is NOT the Main Problem here.

 

However, most of your problems are because of bad speaker and chair placement. In other words you have ACOUSTIC problems which should be solved ACOUSTICALLY first and foremost. Driver polarity is the worst "bark at the wrong tree," so to speak.

 

Best place for your LaScalas are in the room Corners toed in 30 degrees. Best place for your THT's are Front and Rear Wall Centers. The best place for flattest bass in the room after moving the cabinets is to move your seats smack dab in the room CENTER, which will also yield a 60 degree subtended angle for Imaging the LS. All that will reamain as the "icing on the cake" after that will be YPAO Room EQ to flatten things out Further. If your electronics can also automatically add Time Delays on the LaScalas to line up with the horn Subs (6-7 milliseconds) you'll be pretty close to "perfect," or at the very least Full Optimization of your Sound Output.

I'm sure you have a point, and I welcome the suggestions.

 

Unfortunately, some of them aren't feasible for my space; I'm working with what is viable, not what would be ideal. 

• My listening room is 22'4" long x 11'7" wide x 8'2" high. In the centre of one of the long walls is a pair of french doors; there is a fireplace opposite it. The short wall has another set of french doors at the rear, and a large window (plus hot water radiator) at the front.
• I regard the Main Listening Position as being mid-way between my wife's chair and mine. That point is in the centre of the room, about 2/3 of the way from the front.

It's far from an ideal listening space. But it is what I have to work with.

 

Some of your suggestions aren't feasible for my space. For instance:

• My La Scalas won't fit in the corners of my room because of the space taken up by the hot water radiator that heats the room. 
• Since I can't put the subwoofers in the middle of a doorway and a window, I've put them in diagonal corners. The other corners have floor-to-ceiling bass traps.
• Although I don't have an equilateral triangle between the speakers and the centre of my listening position, I'm pretty close: instead of 60-60-60, I have about 70-70-40.
• Putting the chairs in the centre of the room would interfere with the ability to move around the room (because of the space taken up by the doors and the fireplace hearth), so that the listening position is back from the centre of the room. However, the distance from the listening position and the speakers is close to the same as it would have been if the speakers were in the corners and the listening position was in the centre of the room.

The La Scalas are toed in so that they point at the listening position. That's about 25-30 degrees.

The electrical polarity of my speakers (and drivers) is correct.

Unfortunately, I currently lack the means to add a delay between the speakers and subwoofers. 

 

[ClaudeJ1]

1 hour ago, Dave MacKay said:

I'm sure you have a point, and I welcome the suggestions.

 

Unfortunately, some of them aren't feasible for my space; I'm working with what is viable, not what would be ideal. 

• My listening room is 22'4" long x 11'7" wide x 8'2" high. In the centre of one of the long walls is a pair of french doors; there is a fireplace opposite it. The short wall has another set of french doors at the rear, and a large window (plus hot water radiator) at the front.
• I regard the Main Listening Position as being mid-way between my wife's chair and mine. That point is in the centre of the room, about 2/3 of the way from the front.

It's far from an ideal listening space. But it is what I have to work with.

 

Some of your suggestions aren't feasible for my space. For instance:

• My La Scalas won't fit in the corners of my room because of the space taken up by the hot water radiator that heats the room. 
• Since I can't put the subwoofers in the middle of a doorway and a window, I've put them in diagonal corners. The other corners have floor-to-ceiling bass traps.
• Although I don't have an equilateral triangle between the speakers and the centre of my listening position, I'm pretty close: instead of 60-60-60, I have about 70-70-40.
• Putting the chairs in the centre of the room would interfere with the ability to move around the room (because of the space taken up by the doors and the fireplace hearth), so that the listening position is back from the centre of the room. However, the distance from the listening position and the speakers is close to the same as it would have been if the speakers were in the corners and the listening position was in the centre of the room.

The La Scalas are toed in so that they point at the listening position. That's about 25-30 degrees.

The electrical polarity of my speakers (and drivers) is correct.

Unfortunately, I currently lack the means to add a delay between the speakers and subwoofers. 

 

Bummer. You asked for a solution and all you told me was why you are unable to implement it. Not much better than having no solution, but you should fix whatever you CAN fix, right? You asked.

[Dave MacKay]

On 4/19/2022 at 6:41 PM, ClaudeJ1 said:

Bummer. You asked for a solution and all you told me was why you are unable to implement it. 

You misunderstood the intent of my post. 

 

Not all spaces will accommodate an ideal configuration. Mine won't. I wanted to explain what I'm working with, and what I've done to try to improve the acoustics. 

 

Short of selling my house, or moving walls, doors and windows, do you have any suggestions that might be applicable for my space?

[ClaudeJ1]

2 hours ago, Dave MacKay said:

You misunderstood the intent of my post. 

 

Not all spaces will accommodate an ideal configuration. Mine won't. I wanted to explain what I'm working with, and what I've done to try to improve the acoustics. 

 

Short of selling my house, or moving walls, doors and windows, do you have any suggestions that might be applicable for my space?

Of course, but the "bottom line" is still the same. You can't do it AND you have to live with the consequences/

[Tom05]

On 4/26/2022 at 10:34 AM, Dave MacKay said:

You misunderstood the intent of my post. 

 

Not all spaces will accommodate an ideal configuration. Mine won't. I wanted to explain what I'm working with, and what I've done to try to improve the acoustics. 

 

Short of selling my house, or moving walls, doors and windows, do you have any suggestions that might be applicable for my space?

Some people take this audiophile stuff pretty seriously, like Claude, and I appreciate that . I guess I’m not quite the fanatic that he is , but we all will find our audiophile  limitations , the point where we have gone about as far as we’re willing to go.(for the moment anyway) For me, the process of finding my limits , started with my first stereo speakers and it has continued to this day , at some point in the journey  I found justification for building a dedicated room for the Khorns  and Lascala’s , even figured along the way that it made good sense to go with a projector and  AT screen . It’s a slow evolution , but that’s the fun of the hobby . Give it a few years and you’ll be ripping walls out ,covering windows , and yes, you might have to move .🤓

[DJ7675]

I find Audyssey to work well if you are using the Audyssey app ($20). Otherwise, I find it quite terrible.

[DJ7675]

I should also add that I haven’t had the best of luck with using automatic EQ such as Audyssey oVer around 500hz.