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Forte IV Amp Pairing - Yamaha A-S1200. Thoughts?


pimogo

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Driving myself nuts trying to determine if this combo will work well.

 

Recently i had the opportunity to listen to the Forte IVs at a Heritage dealer. I enjoyed the sound but the dealer had them running off a Mcintosh Tube amp. My situation at home is different. I have a Yamaha A-S1200 which i wish to use for 2 channel listening. For those that may have listening to this combo - will they synergize well? Or should i look elsewhere? Other speakers i've earmarked are Focal Arias, Monitor Audio Silvers, and Fynes. 

 

I listen to everything from classical/opera , jazz and Rock to Electronica, Reggae, etc. basically i need something that can hold its own in all genres. I have a pair of Ohm Walshs that excel at choral stuff but to my ears, are not very good w/ rock music.

 

Any advise would be super helpful!

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Hy and welcome to the forum.

It is not what you have asked, but I will try to contribute to your question anyway.

I have not heard the Forte IV but I have listened to several models of Monitor Audio Silvers, Fyne audios and Focals and Yamaha A-S1200.

I would recommend Fortes anyway just from knowing those other speakers you have earmarked. Of course if you have listened uper end of those other speakers, it would make some difference, you have not specified. Anyway, you have heard Fortes. What matters is how do you like them compared to other speakers.

Yamaha has that a bit laid back and detailed sound that might pair well with Klipsch. Look a bit on the forum, there's a good experience with Yamaha and Klipsch Heritage.

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Thanks for the reassurance all!

 

I know many prefer Klipsch heritage w/ tubes so it gave me pause. Others have said the yamaha can be bright, but i believe that refers to yamahas in other lines more. Specifically, i am looking for a full sound with clarity, perhaps a tinge of warmth, and pronounced bass--Tight, controlled but not boomy.  The highs should sparkle, a tad more forward than neutral, but not hot.  naturally the mids should be glorious! :)

 

The monitor audios 300/500s also seem like a candidate for this signature. 

 

I know this is a klipsch forum, but given my amp and sound signature, would the fortes be the top contender in this price point?

 

thanks all!

 

 

 

 

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10 hours ago, parlophone1 said:

Hy and welcome to the forum.

It is not what you have asked, but I will try to contribute to your question anyway.

I have not heard the Forte IV but I have listened to several models of Monitor Audio Silvers, Fyne audios and Focals and Yamaha A-S1200.

I would recommend Fortes anyway just from knowing those other speakers you have earmarked. Of course if you have listened uper end of those other speakers, it would make some difference, you have not specified. Anyway, you have heard Fortes. What matters is how do you like them compared to other speakers.

Yamaha has that a bit laid back and detailed sound that might pair well with Klipsch. Look a bit on the forum, there's a good experience with Yamaha and Klipsch Heritage.

 

did you not enjoy those other speakers (e.g. fyne, monitor and focals) with the yamaha? any particular reasoN? curious as i'm trying ot make a decision w/o the benefit of listening to all these speakers w/ my amp in tow .  

 

thanks!

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8 hours ago, pimogo said:

 i am looking for a full sound with clarity, perhaps a tinge of warmth, and pronounced bass--Tight, controlled but not boomy.  The highs should sparkle, a tad more forward than neutral, but not hot.  naturally the mids should be glorious!

@pimogoyou have described the A-S1200 spot on  ,  with either the Heresy IV- Forte IV .  there is one more feature  of the A-S1200  and the reason it sounds so good  , the  Preamp   .

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35 minutes ago, pimogo said:

well i ended up purchasing the forte ivs today. excited to try them out and hopefully come to the same conclusion as all of you.. 

 

 

You will be very happy I think. Any decent performing amplifier like the Yamaha  you have will work great no matter what people tell you, you do not need tubes. The fact you heard the speakers with a McIntosh tube amplifier and you liked it tells me you will have no issues with a SS amp because the McIntosh tube circuit is extremely squeaky clean and doesn't have the "tube sound" that people that use SET amps like. The McIntosh unity coupled tube circuit is completely different than all other tube amps on the market.

 

 

Mind you I hate blanket statements because not all SS amps are the same like not all tube amps are the same. A single ended no feedback 300b amplifier will have a drastically different performance vs a more common Class AB push pull tube amplifier with feedback. The latter clips just like your typical solid state class AB amplifier and have similar performance but with maybe a slightly higher amount of distortion depending on the topology. Once you get more initiated into technical speak you will find it makes more sense to talk about topology vs what type of active components used because the topology will have a much larger effect on how the amp will perform. Take a first watt F2 or even the SIT-1/SIT-2 will sound more like a tube amp than some very high quality well designed Class AB push pull tube amps. It gets exhausting clearing up myths like "tube sound" because even within "tubes" there are HUGE differences; e.g. A 300b triode has completely different input/output characteristics vs an EL34 true Pentode. A Pentode and Mosfet are extremely similar in characteristics. You can take a Pentode/Mosfet and use feedback to have it perform more like a triode. Basically a well designed tube amp shouldn't sound like anything besides a good amplifier. I see a huge trend of tube amp manufacturers purposely trying to keep performance low in order to have it sound different and for many something new and different is good, for a while. These characteristics are high distortion especially in bass frequencies, rolled off treble; I even see some guys actually want to see ringing and overshoot at the output (instability) in order to get the "tube sound". All of these preferences are subjective and some people that listen to simple music styles like the distortion because it adding information not originally present in the program material which people find pleasing. We call this euphoric distortion. With complex music these distortions can muddy up the original material so with your wide list of genre preferences I think the Yamaha or any good performing, clean amplifier will do excellent. You start to run some SET 300b amps and you might not like it with full orchestral highly dynamic music, or bass heavy Reggae. You want something that can control the woofer, clean enough (<1% THD at full power across entire bandwidth) and unconditionally stable, the latter is very important I feel for any amplifier but you would be surprised with how many amplifiers aren't stable on real loads (reactive speakers).

 

Sleep well at night and enjoy the Yamaha. If you want to get into tubes I recommend auditioning the amp with your system in your house to make sure you are happy before pulling the trigger. You can find diamonds in the rough but it's difficult these days with so many crappy tube amps flooding the market with massive price tags.

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On 4/13/2022 at 12:27 PM, pimogo said:

Driving myself nuts trying to determine if this combo will work well.

 

Recently i had the opportunity to listen to the Forte IVs at a Heritage dealer. I enjoyed the sound but the dealer had them running off a Mcintosh Tube amp. My situation at home is different. I have a Yamaha A-S1200 which i wish to use for 2 channel listening. For those that may have listening to this combo - will they synergize well? Or should i look elsewhere? Other speakers i've earmarked are Focal Arias, Monitor Audio Silvers, and Fynes. 

 

I listen to everything from classical/opera , jazz and Rock to Electronica, Reggae, etc. basically i need something that can hold its own in all genres. I have a pair of Ohm Walshs that excel at choral stuff but to my ears, are not very good w/ rock music.

 

Any advise would be super helpful!

 

For what you are doing the S1200 should work good IMO. I've tested it many times with different speakers and it's demoed in a few of my videos. It's brighter sounding than its less expensive brother, the Yamaha S501 by comparison though. The S501 is definitely less fatiguing to listen to and warmer in sound but you have tone controls for that. The only thing you will lose out on is in the jazz department. Tubes will easily outperform the S1200 because like most solid states, you get that sort of blanketed sound. Tubes just sound more open and spacious by comparison but for the overall music you mentioned, that S1200 will be a very good match IMO and I think you made a good choice. 

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15 minutes ago, angelaudio said:

The only thing you will lose out on is in the jazz department. Tubes will easily outperform the S1200 because like most solid states, you get that sort of blanketed sound. Tubes just sound more open and spacious by comparison but for the overall music you mentioned, that S1200 will be a very good match IMO and I think you made a good choice. 

 

For your average tube amp vs average SS amp (most common topologies from both categories), it's the extra distortion that will make simpler music like jazz more attracting to the ear. But the McIntosh tube circuit is much different, it has low enough distortion where it's inaudible and extremely good bandwidth. I would wager that in a blind test nobody could consistently pick a tube 275 vs SS MC2100. He like the McIntosh amplifier which logic tells me he will like a clean amp that has distortion below human hearing like the Yamaha he has.

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5 minutes ago, captainbeefheart said:

 

For your average tube amp vs average SS amp (most common topologies from both categories), it's the extra distortion that will make simpler music like jazz more attracting to the ear. But the McIntosh tube circuit is much different, it has low enough distortion where it's inaudible and extremely good bandwidth. I would wager that in a blind test nobody could consistently pick a tube 275 vs SS MC2100. He like the McIntosh amplifier which logic tells me he will like a clean amp that has distortion below human hearing like the Yamaha he has.

 

Interesting. I've never heard the MC2100.  Thanks for sharing. 

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39 minutes ago, angelaudio said:

 

Interesting. I've never heard the MC2100.  Thanks for sharing. 

 

Great amplifiers. They use autotransformers at the output to keep power constant with different speaker loads so they are very heavy amplifiers.

 

A decent rule of thumb I keep is an amplifier with lower order distortion, say single ended that will have predominantly second harmonic distortion you can get away with as much as 1% THD before it gets very audible. Other more common amps (class AB push pull from both camps) will have higher order harmonic distortion at low levels so I have a stricter limit of .1%THD where it begins to be very audible. I am a fan of breaking distortion types down because THD doesn't tell the entire story, some distortion is much less audible.

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Yea, distortion has always been an oddball factor for me since that's often what gets measured by techicians but I've never really been able to pinpoint as to what level it measures to actually be audible. BTW, I'm under two avatar names, "angelaudio" and "idontknow". It's a long story, but I just wanted to inform you that you're speaking to the same person, haha! There's something a bit odd regarding distortion that I heard with one speaker vs another. Have you ever had a situation where a floor noise or or high pitch type of distortion is more audible in one speaker vs another? I don't mean with regard to bass, but with regard to  a sizzling sort of effect in the high to midrange. Not sure if that's making any sense to you. Let me know and I'll try to describe it more. 

 

With regard to the OP and the Yamaha S1200, what I was experiencing with it is that there just didn't seem to be any spatial separation between instruments compared to my Alan Eaton 45's, VTA ST-70,  Decware Zen and even a recent Will Vincent ST-70 I reviewed. I didn't account that to be distortion. Are you saying distortion has something to do with the effect? I've generally understood that tubes usually measure with more distortion than SS. 

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16 hours ago, pimogo said:

 

did you not enjoy those other speakers (e.g. fyne, monitor and focals) with the yamaha? any particular reasoN? curious as i'm trying ot make a decision w/o the benefit of listening to all these speakers w/ my amp in tow .  

 

thanks!

 

Congratulation on the new Klipsches. I understand that you bought them.

 

How did I like the other speakers?

Well, Fyne audios were a mixed bag. F500 bookshelves were very detailed at the top end and lacked the bottom end. Also very quirky pairing with electronics, best to hook them up with tubes. Expensive Fynes were too laid back for my taste. The best were F501 and 502 floorstanders.

Lower end Focals tend to be overly bright. The expensive Focals are ok, especially floorstand models.

Monitor Audios are middle of the road, they do things right. Silver 100 bookshelve was my main contender. Good bass for a bookshelve, can play even in larger rooms. Not quick enough for me. Floorstanders are also good, silver 200 and 300 are almost always among the best in class. I once heard Platinum 300 in a large space, not very impressive to my ears..

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12 hours ago, Idontknow said:

Yea, distortion has always been an oddball factor for me since that's often what gets measured by techicians but I've never really been able to pinpoint as to what level it measures to actually be audible. BTW, I'm under two avatar names, "angelaudio" and "idontknow". It's a long story, but I just wanted to inform you that you're speaking to the same person, haha! There's something a bit odd regarding distortion that I heard with one speaker vs another. Have you ever had a situation where a floor noise or or high pitch type of distortion is more audible in one speaker vs another? I don't mean with regard to bass, but with regard to  a sizzling sort of effect in the high to midrange. Not sure if that's making any sense to you. Let me know and I'll try to describe it more. 

 

With regard to the OP and the Yamaha S1200, what I was experiencing with it is that there just didn't seem to be any spatial separation between instruments compared to my Alan Eaton 45's, VTA ST-70,  Decware Zen and even a recent Will Vincent ST-70 I reviewed. I didn't account that to be distortion. Are you saying distortion has something to do with the effect? I've generally understood that tubes usually measure with more distortion than SS. 

 

Okay got it now, two names one guy lol.

 

Yes I have heard that type of noise before, sizzling noises can be a resistor that has gone bad and starting to arc internally but I don't if that's what you are describing. I believe you are describing a ringing/overshoot effect that over emphasis certain high frequencies and makes them harsh and fatiguing. The latter is usually caused by instability, if only in one channel there may be part of the layout that isn't accounted for in the feedback compensation network or a part has drifted or a capacitor is failing causing the instability in one channel.

 

The next part about distortion gets pretty heady, and requires a some insight into specific phenomena. First lets describe distortion. For an amplifier we try to reproduce the input waveform at the output exactly the same only larger. But not everything is perfect and the waveform at the output might be slightly altered. We call this distortion. Now lets look at another definition, timbre. Timbre is what gives our voices uniqueness, it gives instruments their uniqueness. It's why some violins sound more magical than others, same for human singers, some singers just have that magical voice that sends shivers down your spine. Then there is the person that speaks and you cringe because their voice is so painful to listen to. This is timbre but it's also the same as distortion in a mathematical sense. Every single waveform, no matter how complex, no matter what you can scribble on paper as a function is nothing more than a sum of different sine waves. This is the Fourier Transform, or Fourier analysis for distortion measurements. We can take the output of an amplifier and mathematically break it down into different sine waves that make up the total waveform, this is known as an FFT spectrum analysis. Input a "pure" sine wave into the amplifier and measure what comes out, the FFT analysis breaks it down into a graph of what other sine waves are included now into the "pure" fundamental we inserted at the input. Typical is 1kHz, but at the output of a SET amp we will have a large amount of 2kHz added and maybe a some third harmonic at 3kHz, these are sine waves that were not there at the input of the amplifier. Lets get back to timbre, these harmonics are what makes up the sound of things, so some voices or instruments just sound better and it's because of their timbre, or distortion depending how you look at it, playing a 1kHz note on an instrument or someone singing it doesn't contain just the pure 1kHz note, it contains multiple harmonics also. With a tube amp that may have high distortion, yet it's lower order harmonics which are harmonious in terms of music theory and harmony (second harmonic is a musical octave, third harmonic is a musical 12th). We know that certain harmonies sound good together and some sound dissonant. Same goes for different types of harmonic distortion content, it can easily be viewed as music theory or harmony where certain combinations sound harmonious and good while others sound dissonant and wrong. So depending on what type of distortion the amplifier produces will directly correlate to the "timbre" of the amplifier. Now when we get down to a certain level, say -100db or better these become inaudible to humans which is why I say these types of amplifiers we can almost omit the distortion effects on our perception. But a tube amp or any amp that starts to have a distortion that is at a level that is becoming audible then it's a matter of the type of distortion that creates an effect, the timbre. This is why so many people will choose a tube amp with higher distortion as being better sounding, because the timbre is pleasing to our ears, it just sounds better, fuller, warmer, more lively etc... A pure simple sine wave sounds boring and our instruments and voices only contained a perfect fundamental we would all sound the same and the world would be a boring and scary place. I hope I didn't lose you too much, I tried repeating as much as possible to strike the few concepts home and give you something to think about. And so yes one amplifier can be "perfect" and have no audible distortion but being a subjective thing your ear may prefer hearing the musical signal with a slight timbre to it giving it a more complex and harmonious nature to it that we perceive as enjoyable and better. So many, especially with simpler music styles will choose a tube amplifier although it technically isn't perfect and contains distortion, we can also think of it as timbre and you like the effect of the timbre on say instruments or human voices because it gives it more pizazz, more complexity, more harmony, etc... But to the purest at heart these distortions were not there in the original music content so they feel it shouldn't be at the output of the amplifier, to a certain degree they are correct and the amplifier is more of an effects box than a pure amplifier just amplifying what came into it. But it's all for entertainment so if an amp with harmonious coloration is what you enjoy then so be it, use the amp and enjoy it but at least understand that it's not a perfect amplifier and that you are adding in information into the product material that originally was not there at the input. Higher harmonics sound dissonant, think a flat fifth in music theory, so if an amplifier contains higher order harmonics then it can make the material sound "off" and dissonant, fatiguing even as your ear just doesn't approve of the harmonies.

 

It's a very complex matter as you can see.

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Wow, that’s a wealth of interesting info! I can see you know your craft extremely well. I’m going to re-read this post a few times to make sure it sinks in. Very much appreciate you sharing such a detailed explanation on this. I think the OP will be in good hands with your insight. Thank you 😊 

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Though I have never heard the A-S1200, except for YouTube videos which does not count, I have heard and own the "entry level" of the Yamaha analog integrated amps, the A-S1000, and it is one fine piece.  It plays very nice with my RB-75s as well as my RF-63s and Heresy IIs.  Very neutral, Yamaha calls it natural, sound signature and very well balanced from top to bottom.  The A-S1200 is a step up with mosfet output transistors(slightly warmer tone), toroidal transformer, and more discreet parts.  With all that said, my guess would be that the A-S1200 will mate very nicely with a pair of Forte IVs.

 

Bill

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21 hours ago, captainbeefheart said:

 

Okay, jetzt habe ich es verstanden, zwei Namen, ein Typ, lol.

 

Ja, ich habe diese Art von Geräuschen schon einmal gehört, zischende Geräusche können ein Widerstand sein, der schlecht geworden ist und intern zu funken beginnt, aber ich nicht, wenn Sie das beschreiben. Ich glaube, Sie beschreiben einen Klingel- / Überschwingeffekt, der bestimmte hohe Frequenzen überbetont und sie hart und ermüdend macht. Letzteres wird normalerweise durch Instabilität verursacht, wenn nur in einem Kanal ein Teil des Layouts im Rückkopplungskompensationsnetzwerk nicht berücksichtigt wird oder ein Teil gedriftet ist oder ein Kondensator ausfällt, was die Instabilität in einem Kanal verursacht.

 

Der nächste Teil über Verzerrung wird ziemlich berauschend und erfordert einen Einblick in bestimmte Phänomene. Lassen Sie uns zuerst die Verzerrung beschreiben. Bei einem Verstärker versuchen wir, die Eingangswellenform am Ausgang genau gleich wiederzugeben, nur größer. Aber nicht alles ist perfekt und die Wellenform am Ausgang kann leicht verändert sein. Wir nennen das Verzerrung. Schauen wir uns nun eine andere Definition an, Timbre. Das Timbre verleiht unseren Stimmen Einzigartigkeit, es verleiht Instrumenten ihre Einzigartigkeit. Das ist der Grund, warum manche Geigen magischer klingen als andere, dasselbe gilt für menschliche Sänger, manche Sänger haben einfach diese magische Stimme, die einem Schauer über den Rücken jagt. Dann gibt es die Person, die spricht, und Sie schrecken zurück, weil es so schmerzhaft ist, ihrer Stimme zuzuhören. Das ist Timbre, aber es ist auch das Gleiche wie Distortion im mathematischen Sinne. Jede einzelne Wellenform, Egal wie komplex, egal was man auf Papier kritzeln kann, eine Funktion ist nichts anderes als eine Summe verschiedener Sinuswellen. Dies ist die Fourier-Transformation oder Fourier-Analyse für Verzerrungsmessungen. Wir können den Ausgang eines Verstärkers nehmen und ihn mathematisch in verschiedene Sinuswellen zerlegen, die die Gesamtwellenform bilden, dies ist als FFT-Spektrumanalyse bekannt. Geben Sie eine "reine" Sinuswelle in den Verstärker ein und messen Sie, was herauskommt. Die FFT-Analyse zerlegt sie in ein Diagramm, das zeigt, welche anderen Sinuswellen jetzt in der "reinen" Grundwelle enthalten sind, die wir am Eingang eingefügt haben. Typisch ist 1 kHz, aber am Ausgang eines SET-Verstärkers haben wir eine große Menge von 2 kHz hinzugefügt und vielleicht eine dritte Harmonische bei 3 kHz, das sind Sinuswellen, die am Eingang des Verstärkers nicht vorhanden waren. Kommen wir zurück zur Klangfarbe, Diese Obertöne machen den Klang der Dinge aus, also klingen einige Stimmen oder Instrumente einfach besser und das liegt an ihrem Timbre oder ihrer Verzerrung, je nachdem, wie Sie es betrachten, wenn Sie eine 1-kHz-Note auf einem Instrument spielen oder jemand, der sie singt, nicht enthält nur die reine 1-kHz-Note, sie enthält auch mehrere Obertöne. Bei einem Röhrenverstärker, der zwar stark verzerrt ist, aber die Obertöne niedrigerer Ordnung musiktheoretisch und harmonisch harmonisch sind (zweiter Oberton ist eine musikalische Oktave, dritter Oberton ist eine musikalische Zwölftel). Wir wissen, dass bestimmte Harmonien gut zusammen klingen und manche dissonant klingen. Dasselbe gilt für verschiedene Arten von harmonischen Verzerrungsinhalten, es kann leicht als Musiktheorie oder Harmonie angesehen werden, wo bestimmte Kombinationen harmonisch und gut klingen, während andere dissonant und falsch klingen. Je nachdem, welche Art von Verzerrung der Verstärker erzeugt, korreliert sie also direkt mit der „Klangfarbe“ des Verstärkers. Wenn wir nun einen bestimmten Pegel erreichen, sagen wir -100 dB oder besser, werden diese für Menschen unhörbar, weshalb ich sage, dass wir mit diesen Verstärkertypen die Verzerrungseffekte auf unsere Wahrnehmung fast weglassen können. Aber ein Röhrenverstärker oder irgendein Verstärker, der anfängt, eine Verzerrung zu haben, die auf einem Niveau ist, das hörbar wird, dann ist es eine Frage der Art der Verzerrung, die einen Effekt erzeugt, das Timbre. Aus diesem Grund wählen so viele Leute einen Röhrenverstärker mit höherer Verzerrung als besser klingend, weil das Timbre für unsere Ohren angenehm ist, es klingt einfach besser, voller, wärmer, lebendiger usw. Eine reine einfache Sinuswelle klingt langweilig und unsere Instrumente und Stimmen enthielten nur einen perfekten Grundton, wir würden alle gleich klingen und die Welt wäre ein langweiliger und beängstigender Ort. Ich hoffe, ich habe Sie nicht zu sehr verloren, ich habe versucht, so viel wie möglich zu wiederholen, um die wenigen Konzepte zu treffen und Ihnen etwas zum Nachdenken zu geben. Und so kann ein Verstärker "perfekt" sein und keine hörbare Verzerrung aufweisen, aber da es subjektiv ist, hört Ihr Ohr das Musiksignal möglicherweise lieber mit einem leichten Timbre, was ihm eine komplexere und harmonischere Natur verleiht, die wir als angenehm empfinden und besser. So viele, gerade bei einfacheren Musikstilen, entscheiden sich für einen Röhrenverstärker, obwohl dieser technisch nicht perfekt ist und Verzerrungen enthält, Wir können es uns auch als Klangfarbe vorstellen, und Sie mögen die Wirkung der Klangfarbe auf beispielsweise Instrumente oder menschliche Stimmen, weil sie ihnen mehr Schwung, mehr Komplexität, mehr Harmonie usw. verleihen. Aber im reinsten Herzen waren diese Verzerrungen nicht da im ursprünglichen Musikinhalt, so dass sie der Meinung sind, dass es nicht am Ausgang des Verstärkers liegen sollte, bis zu einem gewissen Grad haben sie Recht, und der Verstärker ist eher eine Effektbox als ein reiner Verstärker, der nur verstärkt, was in ihn kam. Aber es ist alles zur Unterhaltung, also wenn Sie einen Verstärker mit harmonischer Farbgebung mögen, dann sei es so, verwenden Sie den Verstärker und genießen Sie ihn, aber verstehen Sie zumindest, dass es kein perfekter Verstärker ist und dass Sie dem Produktmaterial Informationen hinzufügen, die ursprünglich vorhanden sind war am Eingang nicht da. Höhere Obertöne klingen dissonant, denken Sie an eine flache Quinte in der Musiktheorie,

 

Es ist eine sehr komplexe Angelegenheit, wie Sie sehen können.

 

Thank you CBH, I was aware of the content but you have written a fantastic and at the same time very enjoyable and understandable read for any interested layman from your expert‘s perspective.
BTW if today's technology is soon ready then I see a gap in the market. Today there are already in the guitar world so-called modeling amps. They are very popular with the bedroom guitarists but also in studios. Who does not know them, you have a digital processor amp with an extensive DSP module, and the special thing is that you have (in addition to your own sound creations) a memory bank with the most famous guitar amps of the last 70 years. From Fender tweet XY to Marshall Plexi and many many more.I personally prefer the soul of "one real amp", for example my Fender Bassman or my Matchless Spitfire. But anyway, you can copy almost any sound with modeling guitar amps, not only the electronics but the whole box including driver sound characteristics even at low volumes it is amazing simulation.

This would be the nice marketing gap for the hi-fi segment. Provided that it works technically really well I imagine an amp that has program banks...from the MC275 over many different SET, plus old Luxman, Marantz up to Pass First Watt, my Quad 306 etc. Actually that should be feasible, either "only" as a sound signature or even with different damping factor, impedance, output power etc. what all the program preselection would realize. It would be the "meta sound control". And it would be the admission that we do not want to have a "real" sound but well-seasoned and flavored dishes.

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