Klipschorn spacing

[Dr Morbius]

I’m building a listening room with a surround sound system and am contemplating getting a pair of Klipschorns for the corners. The room will be 20’-5” by 26’ by 8’ high. I plan on putting the speakers on the 20 foot 5 inch wall - it would work best there. My question is could that be too wide a space for Khorns?  Were they designed to be a bit closer together?  I don’t want to lose the soundstage that they are famous for producing!

Thanks for your replies!

[jimjimbo]

Not a problem at all.  Have fun.

[billybob]

Yes...

[OO1]

Should work  , 20 feet 5 inches is also perfect for a center  speaker  between the khorns .

[PrestonTom]

It best not to think in term of distance, but rather in terms of angle.

If the listening angle is between 45-60 deg you will be fine. If it is larger than about 75 deg, then you may need a center speaker to maintain a "stable center" image. These numbers are approximations and should not be worshipped. 

 

[garyrc]

@Dr Morbius

 

60 degrees works very well for my K-horns ... 

• I do often use our (modified Belle Klipsch) center speaker, though.
• Many mixing rooms use 60 degrees, but they usually have 1 (or more) center speakers.
• Whether I use the center speaker for 2 channel music listening or not depends on the imaging on the recording.  Different mic patterns are alleged to make a center useful or not with a 2 channel source.  We are forced to judge by ear with the 99% of recordings that don't annotate the mic pattern in the text.  Of course, with multichannel SACDs, etc., or with simulated multichannel from 2 track (e.g., Pro Logic II and beyond) I use the full surround sound suite. 60 degrees is still good.
• For movies, of course, we use the full suite.

In this theater (my favorite 70mm commercial cinema, until they first put in a smaller, flat screen, and later added insult by tearing it down) the "film buff seats" in the 11 th row from the screen was about 70 degrees, and the 18 th row (for the ill-informed) was about 53 degrees.

 

2 hours ago, PrestonTom said:

It best not to think in term of distance, but rather in terms of angle.

 

[garyrc]

@Dr Morbius

P.S. 

 

If the room is going to double as a home theater (and why not?), I recommend an acoustically transparent screen, with an aspect ratio of about 2.35:1 to accommodate almost all 12 aspect ratios.   Seymour makes good ones, in a variety of custom shapes.  Ours is 130" image width, but yours could be larger, and if the audience is at the tip of a 60 degree equilateral triangle, the screen could either be between the K-horns, or in front of them, filling the entire wall, where few have gone before.  We can fill our screen top to bottom, and whatever width the aspect ratio dictates (called "Common Height"). with all but Ultra (not Super) Panavision 70, Camera 65, and the temporary AR of CinemaScope, pre-1957, before they added more soundtracks.  The felt borders of the screen make all other true widescreen (2.21:1 or greater; the measly 16:9 or 1.78:1 of most TV screens is narrower than most American narrow screen) ARs usable with no black bars top or bottom.

 

Since you like Star Trek, most ST movies are 2.40:1 (if you see one in 70mm, it will probably be 2.21:1).  Also, the closing music of The Wrath of the Khan (during the end credits) has some of the best imaging ever (even though it has fairly thin bass).  How good is it?  My wife and I walked up and stood a few inches from the screen, between the Khorns, and could point at each instrument group -- no holes.

[Khornukopia]

19 hours ago, Dr Morbius said:

I plan on putting the speakers on the 20 foot 5 inch wall

That should work out nicely. While building out your listening room. you might want to run extra speaker wire, like for a center channel and some subwoofers.

[Dr Morbius]

Hey garyrc,   Your diagram of Khorn placements shows 60 degree angles, which I believe would be perfect, but if they are placed in corners correctly for the bass wouldn’t it be 45 degrees?   ( unless some models had adjustable mid-horns ?)

 

Also just wondered how you knew I liked Star Trek?  You are right of course!
 

 

[Schu]

Equal lateral is 45 degrees...

I've discovered that the Klipschorn work wonderfully for near field listening...

[garyrc]

14 hours ago, Dr Morbius said:

Hey garyrc,   Your diagram of Khorn placements shows 60 degree angles, which I believe would be perfect, but if they are placed in corners correctly for the bass wouldn’t it be 45 degrees?   ( unless some models had adjustable mid-horns ?)

 

Also just wondered how you knew I liked Star Trek?  You are right of course!
 

 

 

As you say, the Khorns, if pushed into the corner properly, aim out into the room with 45 degrees on each side of the center line bisecting the 90 degree room corner.  But, the distance of your Main Listening Position (MLP), from the intertweeter line, at the vertex of a triangle, determines the angle you see (hear).  So,

• To be ridiculous for a moment, putting the MLP right on the line between the speakers gives you 180 degrees
• Putting your back against the rear wall at the other end of the room would give you an angle less than 60 degrees. 
• It all depends on the position of the beholder.  In my case, the Khorns are 13.4 feet apart, center of tweeter to center of tweeter.  So, we sit about 13.4 feet away.  With your 25 foot width, your tweeters might be 21.65 feet apart, which probably means that to get 60 degrees, you should shoot for 21.65 feet down the sides of the triangle, to the vertex nearest the opposite side of the room from the Khorns.  This will be a little less than 21.65 feet down the room, away from the speakers.  Studios traditionally tend to use this angle.  It's not magic.  You will be slightly off-axis.  Some people like this, others do not.  So ...
• You might get away with sitting closer, to be on-axis, and get even greater spaciality, even without a center speaker, but more assuredly so with a center channel.
• Naturally, room modes need to be dealt with, at least at first by ear.
• All Khorns without sealed backs need to be sealed into corners (real or artificial) with the aid of something like pipe insulation.  Even with closed backs, the Khorns should be well into the corners, but can be toed in toward the listener.  Even the new Khorns need boundary gain and room gain, and should not be raised off the floor.  Stereophile violated all these rules, and got really terrible and invalid bass response. 
• (Your) Interests, according to the Klipsch home page:    Astronomy, Classic Cars, HP Lovecraft, Star Trek, Beautiful women.  The Wrath of the Khan is my favorite Star Trek.  For a while, in the early '70s, I worked for Optica b/c so I was somewhat interested in astronomy.  We almost made a "movie of the mind" in quadraphonic sound, taking the listeners along through the mythology, history, religious aspects, and birth, life, and death of the sun, but not the corny planetarium style programs (which Optica also had for sale).  We had actors, spectacular sound effects, and a full orchestra ... but the best laid plans ... it was too complicated and expensive to complete.

[William the Greek]

I am a new and proud own of a pair of KLA6 speakers. They are on the short side wall of a room that is 15 ft Wide x 23 ft long by 8.5 ft. high. We have placed them on the short side wall due to room architecture and furniture constraints. This spacing put the acoustic intersection at 6 feet from the front wall . Our listen position is facing the front wall and is 15 feet away from the front wall, well back from the acoustic intersection. I have toe-in the KLA6 speakers to cross about 1 foot in front of the listening position. Does this make good sense to those of you who have been doing this longer then me ? Any and all constructive sugestions are welcomed. I will try to post a diagram if time permits.

Regards,

Bill the Greek

Living rm KLA6 speaker placement 25-June-2022.pdf