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K510 vs JBL HF section ... the winner is ...


Emile
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1 hour ago, Marvel said:

I would add trim pieces to the sides of the 904 cabs to match whatever size you make for the JBL horns on top instead of trimming the horns.

Thanks Marvel, but my 904's are semi enclosed in a bookcase. Only have 28" width, so going to have to cut :( 

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49 minutes ago, tigerwoodKhorns said:

What is the low frequency cutoff on the JBL Horns.  More specifically, can they be used with K Horns bass bins? 

Unable to find specs on the JBL website :( A poster on audiogon (? or elsewhere - I forgot) stated a cutoff frequency of 400Hz. They are used on several JBL setups - like the 4722 which has an advised active crossover at 630Hz.  Sorry, cannot positively state they can be used with a KHorn (450Hz cutoff).

 

Also, see discussion at https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/which-horn-from-450-to-2000hz-k-510.302910/page-4

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57 minutes ago, Emile said:

Unable to find specs on the JBL website :( A poster on audiogon (? or elsewhere - I forgot) stated a cutoff frequency of 400Hz. They are used on several JBL setups - like the 4722 which has an advised active crossover at 630Hz.  Sorry, cannot positively state they can be used with a KHorn (450Hz cutoff).

 

Also, see discussion at https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/which-horn-from-450-to-2000hz-k-510.302910/page-4

 

Speaker exchange only has one in stock so a no go here. 

 

 

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They are at $118, but would still have shipping.

 

And I think you could lose some of the sides on the horns and not worry about it much. They are 30" aren't they?

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1 hour ago, Marvel said:

I think you could lose some of the sides on the horns and not worry about it much. They are 30" aren't they?

YES; 30" exactly. Mouth is asymmetrical, about 25" on bottom and 23" on top. To fit it into a "27 inch 904 size" cabinet I need to cut it down to 25-1/2." A bit close, but maybe (???) OK. Minor (???) problem may be that I am planning on using grilles with these - grill template may overlap bottom mouth opening by maybe 1/2 inch on each side :(  

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1 hour ago, Marvel said:

They are at $118, but would still have shipping.

Yes; at SpeakerExchange, they will dropship from JBL ... about $128 with tax and $36 shipping (to MY location), i.e. $154 which is in the same ballpark as the other seller I mentioned previously :) 

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Perfect! I have two or three designs for bass cabinets from which I am choosing. All three are 30 inches wide (JWC's Minipunch, Peavey FH-1, University Classic).

 

I'm still thinking a 1.4 inch driver could be mated to the 1.5 inch horns. That would open up more options, like a bunch of Faital drivers.

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6 hours ago, Marvel said:

I have two or three designs for bass cabinets from which I am choosing. All three are 30 inches wide

Haha; you lucky guy. Yes; these horns are made for it :) 

 

Re the 1.4 CD on a 1.5 horn. Never got an answer on that question ... also, searched everywhere :(  But pretty sure it will work - if not there would be adapters available (never found any).

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We're talking .05" for the difference. The thickness of an adapter could have the angle match the driver exit angle or the horn entrance angle. They probably aren't the same. 🤔

 

I doubt my ears could hear what's happening. Mayby REW would show it.

 

I'm good at planning and never cutting wood, though so it could be another five years before I do anything. 🙄

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On 4/28/2022 at 3:03 PM, Emile said:

Have had K510's (w/ B&C DE75 2" drivers) for a long time now. Very satisfied, but always wanted a bigger horn...

 

So; after much searching, found the JBL 2384 horns (about 30x15," 1.5" throat). With a JBL 1.5" driver, these are the same as found on the JBL 4722 HF setup.

 

Also got JBL 2351H drivers for these...

 

So far, the winner is the JBL setup :) The JBL's sound refined and very well balanced versus the K510's. The K510's just sound "harsh and jarring" in comparison, also lacking clarity and they seem to accentuate the higher frequencies - could be the driver?? :(

 

 

Cheers, Emile

 

 

 

That's A LOT of variables to take into account as causality for what you are interpreting...

 

I wanted to ask, that 2384 is asymmetrical... what is the orientation?

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On 4/28/2022 at 3:03 PM, Emile said:

So far, the winner is the JBL setup :) The JBL's sound refined and very well balanced versus the K510's. The K510's just sound "harsh and jarring" in comparison, also lacking clarity and they seem to accentuate the higher frequencies - could be the driver?? :( 

 

 So I will not argue which is or should be better but just looking at what's going on here that JBL horn is huge, probably more in the running with the 402 than the 510. One thing I find interesting is what appears to be the equipment you're driving your 904's with; a home theater receiver as a preamp and an old Pro amplifier? I'm not surprised they sound harsh, have you tried any other equipment, tubes or at least a quality integrated or separates? 

 

 As I've pointed out before my speakers use the k510's / k-69a as mid drivers and they can be harsh and even fatiguing with the wrong equipment as they tend to run a bit on the hotter side but when you get a good match like my Carver tubes or even my Sunfire 600 they just sound so open and smooth, very detailed even at low volumes sub 70db. Either way I guess there's more than one way to make a system work, changing equipment or changing / modifying speakers glad you found something that has enhanced your listening experience.  

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1 hour ago, Schu said:

that 2384 is asymmetrical... what is the orientation?

Top is smaller than bottom by a few inches. Also, driver position is angled down towards bottom ... about 3 degrees. Maybe you can see the asymmetric layout in this pic ...

365359-001-3-e1573765307351.jpg

 

Oops, just saw @Marvel posted this already - thanks! :) 

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2 hours ago, jjptkd said:

So I will not argue which is or should be better but just looking at what's going on here that JBL horn is huge, probably more in the running with the 402 than the 510. One thing I find interesting is what appears to be the equipment you're driving your 904's with; a home theater receiver as a preamp and an old Pro amplifier? I'm not surprised they sound harsh, have you tried any other equipment, tubes or at least a quality integrated or separates? 

Hi @jjptkd To clarify .... for example, Oppo BVD-103 HDMI goes into an Onkyo TX-RZ810 AVR (just to "get" the HDMI signal - AVR is mainly used as a "switch" for different HDMI input signals). AVR pre-out feeds a NIKKO Beta II preamp which is fed to a Crown K1 via XLR which powers the KPT-904's and the JBL HF section via its onboard xover (820/800Hz, Linkwitz 24dB). I have zero noise/hiss, so pretty satisfied :) Have a Xilica XP-2040 which I may try later, but (right now) do not feel like adding this DSP, and an amp, and different wiring :( 

 

Yes, tried some other amps such as a Marantz 2252B (not enough power for the bass bins), a Crown XLS-2502 (OK, but no improvement over the K1). Also tried a Yamaha C-2 preamp (NIKKO was just as good).

 

The JBL 2384 was the biggest horn I could find - short of the K-402 which just does NOT fit in my setup. Per Claude, "bigger is better," so am giving it a try :)  Only have one hooked up with a single K-510 remaining in place for comparison. Have not run REW, etc. yet - just initial listening impressions to a variety of music. And yes, the differences could be due to the different drivers, the JBL HF section comes across very smooth vs a harsh K-510.  Note that the difference is NOT as pronounced as in my smooth/harsh statement. It is minor but indeed audible. :) 

 

Thanks, Emile

 

 

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1 hour ago, Khornukopia said:

I am curious about the function of the extra downstream pre-amp

Corrected my post ... using PRE-OUT from AVR  into preamp, so nothing (?) should be added from the AVR. Using the AVR only as a HDMI switch to go downstream :) 

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My comments may seem a bit abrupt but I am trying to be helpful. 

 

A key finding in the the studies of Toole etc is that a speaker system (key word: system) sounds best when the dispersion is somewhat comparable across the spectrum.  (measured by beam width or Directivity Index -DI). Three features are 1) the dispersion will always be quite wide for the lowest octaves, 2) dispersion will generally be narrow at the highest octaves (in part mitigated by clever use of a phase plug or vanes at the horn throat), 3) deviations  in the dispersion (as a function of frequency) should be gradual (especially at the woofer to tweeter transition). When most talk about a horn's dispersion they are typically emphasizing dispersion on the horizontal plane and ignoring dispersion in the vertical plane.

 

However, Roy has been very careful to give weight to the vertical plane also. That is why he frequently uses the term "coverage angle" in order to emphasize of importance of paying attention to dispersion in both planes. 

 

The K-510 controls dispersion (coverage angle) in both planes at about 1600 Hz and up. It actually controls dispersion down to about 500Hz in the horizontal plane.

 

Have you guys looked at the specs on the JBL horn?

 

Key point is what is the intended crossover frequency? Further, what is the dispersion of the woofer in that spectral region and is it comparable for the tweeter horn (especially in the horizontal plane)? Does the tweeter horn have any abrupt changes in dispersion across the spectrum (ignore the extremes for now) or are the changes gradual? You will see that the K-510 horn is actually quite a horn for such a little guy. Examination of the JBL shows some anomalies (including "pinching"). Are they big enough to matter? Who knows since it depends on the choice of crossover. Additionally are the anomalies big enough to have a perceptual impact. I don't know.

 

So all in all, the comparison may be more complicated than simply repeating the mantra that "bigger is better". It depends .......

 

The other nagging issue is that the JBL horn needs a driver that is 1.4 or 1.5 inch and the K-510 horn uses a 2 inch driver (don't bother with an adapter, simply get the right size to begin with). Crossing the smaller driver at a low frequency can lead to distortion (especially if it is crossed with a shallow filter and played loudly). Again this is a system design issue and it is not clear what your target crossover might be. IOW, choosing a crossover point is determined or constrained by a number of things.  

 

I am not being negative. I just wanted to point out some system design considerations.

 

Good luck,

-Tom

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