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Cornwall 3 vs Cornwall 4 impression


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4 hours ago, Flevoman said:

Interesting thoughts about the horns. 

What I still don't really hear in the CW4 and what I did hear in the CW3 is a certain lightness around certain sounds. For example, brushes over the fleece of a drum. That sound came with the CW3 very airy, loose and detailed from the midhorn. That gave me a very realistic experience. CW4 does this great too, nothing wrong with it, but I miss that airy feeling around the brushes. To make sure, I'm not saying the CW4 ain't good. I really like this speaker. It's just doing some things a bit different. 

 

Your finding coincide precisely with mine. I believe this is happening because those subtle details and audible space around them are being spread out more with the mid horn and perhaps becoming slightly less audible by comparison. This is the issue I'm having with these newer open midrange horns. I too found that the horn on my Heresy II was noticeably more effortless with air and space around it than that of the Heresy IV and this is probably because the mid horn is shorter or more shallow by comparison on the H IV.

 

If you don't have this track on vinyl or CD and can stream, there's a really delicate test track my friends and I use to compare delicate subtleties at lower volume. I often play jazz late in the evenings at lower volume using single ended amps so I'm probably only using 1 watt of power with my Forte 1's which I absolutely love, particularly since they have phenolic tweeters. They just have a smoother and sweeter sound to my ears. At exactly 1 minute into this track called "Danny Boy" by Bill Evans, there's a very delicate splash on the symbols which emanates from the right channel.

 

There's a few versions of this song, so make sure it's this one. Pay close attention to that symbol in the right channel, it's very delicate. It should come through effortlessly at low volume in a nice speaker.  My Heresy 2's and Forte 1's present this so beautifully at low level volumes. Some of this will come from the right tweeter while some through the right side midrange horn. I hope to hear about more of your impressions in the future and really appreciate your thoughts.

Best!

 

 

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2 hours ago, mustang_flht said:

Hi @Flevoman

 

You can follow some tips here to get more bass on your CW4

 

1 - For me the first advice you can add 2 or 3 db around 30Hz with an equalizer (ideal McIntosh, Accuphase ... preamplifier or new DSP digital)

 

211950239_C504bass.thumb.jpg.2d29b3905b7410b52c7e7924ce5bf3c3.jpg

 

 

 

2 - Second, if you want a slightly lower Hz setting for your bass-reflex: temporarily plug one of the 3 tubes with felt

 

3 - Try to bring your CW4s even closer to the wall almost glued to it, you will still gain a little bass

 

4 - Make 1, 2 and 3 and you'll have a ton of bass just the way you like it

 

 

Good tests and good listening

 

 

 

Read the tips here

 

 

Mustang,

Good suggestions. Could you please explain what you meant regarding the tubes with felt? I didn't quite understand that. I like your suggestions on the equalizer. Sometimes it's good to add a little something if needed and I love McIntosh too. Gotta get one of their products again some day. I used to have a pair of MC30 monos along with a pair of C8's. Could you tell me the model of your McIntosh in your photo?

Happy listening

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1 hour ago, Shakeydeal said:

Open floor plans are a death knell to a high end system.

 

Couldn't disagree more.  I have my system set up in an open floor plan great room and it sounds terrific.

 

Besides, I'd rather sacrifice a tiny bit of audiophile perfection so as to more easily enjoy music in the company of others.  Great music - cued up by myself, or others - needs to be shared.  IMHO

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1 hour ago, Shakeydeal said:

Open floor plans are a death knell to a high end system.

 

I couldn't disagree more either. And, how do you expect to increase bass without a wall behind the listener? I don't think you're giving Flevoman as much credit as he deserves. Someone comes up with something constructive for once and you shoot it down at every angle between break in period and now it's the room. Both speakers are experiencing the same room. My room is set up the same way and it sounds amazing. I also have a room set up with the speakers so they face the direction of the long side of the room as well. There's nothing wrong with that room in the photo, certainly not a death knell. 

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1 hour ago, Idontknow said:

 

Mustang,

Good suggestions. Could you please explain what you meant regarding the tubes with felt? I didn't quite understand that. I like your suggestions on the equalizer. Sometimes it's good to add a little something if needed and I love McIntosh too. Gotta get one of their products again some day. I used to have a pair of MC30 monos along with a pair of C8's. Could you tell me the model of your McIntosh in your photo?

Happy listening

 

 

@Idontknow

 

Thank man 👍 Mine McIntosh are C504 preamplifier

 

read there, i described the use of felt in a vent here >>>  

 

Example of the result

1091665052_unnamed-Copie.thumb.jpg.0887652ca5bb16b62053a838e83f6776.jpg

 

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6 hours ago, Idontknow said:

 



 

You did a constructive short review and I really respect and appreciated the comments you provided, particularly because you also explained how it depended on the kind of music being played which is often what creates much of the confusion and differences in opinions. I often prefer to know what people are listening to first before I even bother asking their opinion on a speaker. The comments you made regarding the bass and mid horn are spot on with my impressions as well which I commented on in my Forte 1 video that was nearly 30 minutes long, particularly with regard to the midrange horn as well.  
 
In my case, I was actually not surprised regarding your comments on the bass because I recently spent an afternoon with the Cornwall 1 which used the vertical horn and grills that can not be removed.  I did tons of research on this mid range design but there were noticeable differences with the Cornwall's bass compared to the Forte 1. The way the bass projects itself would also be dependant on how or where the speaker was placed IMO so comments regarding others having a different experience regarding bass may have something to do with how their speaker was placed at the time of their listening experiences. 
 
I'm guessing that the newer CW IV midrange being neutral has something to do with the new, shallow shape of the mid horn. I had this same experience with the Forte 3's new midrange horn design which I didn't care for as much because it just seemed like the sound of the horns with jazz music were getting lost out in space more and less coherent. Perhaps the newer horn is better for more genres of music, however, for jazz which is most of what I listen to, I tend to struggle with the newer midrange designs on all the newer IV series. Imagine if the horn of a trumpet was opened up more. If it were opened more without proportionately making it deeper like the LaScala's horn for example, then the coherency would get lost and dispersed outward more. It certainly makes the horn look much nicer, but there has to be trade-offs that listeners ultimately have to decide on. 
 
I believe that this same effect is why you find the mid horn on the CW IV to be more neutral and maybe that's better as a general purpose speaker for some. Obviously many others seem to like the new IV but the issue I have with most reviews is the lack of information at describing what those differences are that led them to that conclusion. You didn't do that in your review but isn't it amazing how much the new IV series cost compared to the older speakers which are a half to a third the cost and even you are surprised at how little their differences were. 
 
When I compared my Heresy II to the newer Heresy IV, I was shocked at how much lower the volume sounded with the Heresy IV. I mostly use single ended tube amps with just a few watts, so I want every bit of efficiency I can get. At this point, I'm wondering if the more shallow shape of the Heresy IV's vs II mid horn is what caused that difference. Think about it more a minute. If a person was trying to yell at someone in the distance and didn't cup their hands around their mouth, then their voice wouldn't project out as easily. 
 
Put on a pair of earbuds or headsets and listen to the way the voices project out on the Heresy IV vs the Forte IV which has an even more spread out mid horn than the Heresy IV. If you listen carefully, you will notice that the Forte IV has beautiful detail BUT sounds more recessed or in the background more. This is most likely happening because the horn is spreading the sound out more and losing coherency. Steve Huff later admitted in a follow up video the exact same thing. He even said this himself. He described the Forte IV as a jack of all trades speaker. For jazz, I struggled with the newer Heritage lines which is precisely why I went with the Forte 1 over any of the other Forte's. It has the deepest bass of them all at low volume plus it has the traditional horn shaped midrange I prefer for jazz. 
 
I'm okay with a bigger horn, but IMO, the depth of the horn needs to be proportionate to the width which is why I think the LaScala and K-horn project so beautifully my comparison to anything.  I'm cool with a bigger horn, but I think it needs to remain deeper. I think klipch is doing a good job on the newer IV for general purpose. Softer top end and in theory less of a horn sound by opening up the midrange mouth more. Maybe that's better for most. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 

 

Thank you very much for your impressive description. I think I know pretty well what you want to say. To shorten it...because I could write a lot about it (which may not be of interest for everyone) the core question from my point of view is the following: Is the most neutral speaker the best for jazz and wind instruments? Or do I have better and more authentic sound for trumpets, saxophones and trombones with a horn that on the other hand reproduces other instruments less well? Like the older exponential horns. Here is another thread you may have seen. It's about the lifelike reproduction of string instruments vial horn speakers...and the limits of what seems possible. As an interested layman, I have heard that exponential horns have the lowest distortion. And they may also be more directional than tractrix horns. That means if it is true that the sweetspot is smaller with exponential horns than with tractrix horns...in other words, to put it bluntly, only one listener gets the full benefit while a tractrix horn might provide the same experience for a wider range of listeners. But that's where the experience of absolute energy probably suffers if it's not focused in just one place also because I think that the more narrow a sweat spot is the more 3D experience it could deliver. My 1977 Lascalas represent all the merits for jazz music you describe. I will reinstall my Underground Jubilee very soon, they have been dormant for a few years. From memory the sound was really very good but as you said more geared to all instruments which of course is a good think. The old Lascala on the other hand bring jazz in particular so well as you describe with this energy and vividness. I will report on the difference.

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4 hours ago, KT88 said:

I have heard that exponential horns have the lowest distortion. And they may also be more directional than tractrix horns. That means if it is true that the sweetspot is smaller with exponential horns than with tractrix horns...in other words, to put it bluntly, only one listener gets the full benefit while a tractrix horn might provide the same experience for a wider range of listeners. But that's where the experience of absolute energy probably suffers if it's not focused in just one place 

 

 This has been my experience when comparing the Chorus 1 to the Chorus II-- I really like the pointedness and detail of the exponential over the Tractrix in these two speakers but it does come at a cost. One is as you mention more directional and two, in my experience, they can get "honky" at higher volumes where the Tractrix seems to hold it together a bit better. 

 

 The miracle is the larger 2" exit drivers on the Tractrix horn like the k510-- it combines the best of both horns nice open sound of the Tractrix with the same detail as the exponential horn. 

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13 hours ago, mustang_flht said:

Hi @Flevoman

 

You can follow some tips here to get more bass on your CW4

 

1 - For me the first advice you can add 2 or 3 db around 30Hz with an equalizer (ideal McIntosh, Accuphase ... preamplifier or new DSP digital)

 

211950239_C504bass.thumb.jpg.2d29b3905b7410b52c7e7924ce5bf3c3.jpg

 

 

 

2 - Second, if you want a slightly lower Hz setting for your bass-reflex: temporarily plug one of the 3 tubes with felt

 

3 - Try to bring your CW4s even closer to the wall almost glued to it, you will still gain a little bass

 

4 - Make 1, 2 and 3 and you'll have a ton of bass just the way you like it

 

 

Good tests and good listening

 

 

 

Read the tips here

 

 Thank you very much for the tips and help. I apriciate it. 👍🏻

 

1- my preamp does have tonecontrol and if I want I can add some base. I haven't done it yet but it is possible. Is +1 bass the same as 2 dB 30HZ?

Edit: let me be a bit more precise, is adding more bass the same as increasing the 30hz range? 

2-I'm sorry, but I don't you understand what you mean with this.

Edit: found your explenation, I'm going to give it a try 👍🏻

3-i haven't done much with adjusting the position of the speakers yet. First I want to get used to the sound so i can hear the small differences better. 

But I'll give this a try tonight. 

4-i will let you know 😉

 

Thanks for the link. I had read it before. An interesting post indeed.  There is also an interesting review online from someone who also had problems with the bass and had solved this by placing the speakers against the wall. (your tip nr3) 

 

https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/speaker/floor-standing/klipsch-cornwall-iv-speaker-review/

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I read very interesting comments about the audible differences between the different types of midhorns.  Good to hear that others recognize what I thought I heard too.  I was almost starting to doubt myself.  I have no knowledge about how horns work, but as it is described in a few posts I think it sounds very logical, but also very recognizable with what I hear myself.  It is also positive that is explained that both type of horns have their advantages and disadvantages.  I think any prospective buyer of the next generation of Heritage speakers could use this information to figure out what his/her sound preference is.

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On 5/4/2022 at 5:11 PM, Chief bonehead said:

And I appreciate your opinion, either way, because you heard them side by side……..

If you apply simple logic to this thread, it's pretty difficult to fault how the IV series came about, with a bit of presumption of knowledge on my part.

 

While loudspeaker design is a well established science and the tools for a DIY Hobbyist have gotten better, you have to give credit to the man who was Paul Klipsch's "apprentice." Who knows better than one who has probably spent 30,000 man hours with the science and craft, with every modern Pro Tool imaginable for design and measurement, including an anechoic chamber and a 3D printer called "Stereo Lithography" that is now in it's 3rd decade of creating fast prototypes for research and development.

 

In the quest for realizing PWK's vision, why would the Chief ever bother to created something that wasn't a REAL improvement, using those hours of Accumulated Knowledge and Experience?

 

Then having the guts to get a group together to do and A/B comparison of old/new for a room full of trained ears who paid for the privilege. It's a much better DEMO that one would Ever get in a dealer showroom or someone else's home or some random guy with an iPhone recording that puts up a You Tube video with his iPhone, or an industry pundit who just TALKS about a speaker without even playing it. How ridiculous.

 

With different ports, box innards, woofer position, a bigger mid horn, bigger driver, better tweeter driver, better tweeter horn, a better crossover, etc. Only the box remains as being the same, so yes, it has to be an improvement, otherwise why bother? There's the Pride factor too in there somewhere.

 

Like the Corvette C8 vs a C7, I seriously doubt anyone would prefer the older model after driving them both on the same race track, one after the other. 

 

Speaker preference is a psycho-acoustic situation with room and placement variables dominating. PWK once wrote that 90% of the sound is from the Reverberant field in a room, and maintaining all the measurable distortions as low as possible will always be part of the evolution that only goes Forward, regardless of the nostalgia factor where people convince themselves that the memory of what they had before sounds better than what they have now.

 

So I propose that ALL Cornwall IV's sound different because all rooms sound different, which make 99% of these words fun to read, but still, inherently,  random,  scattered opinions.

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6 hours ago, Flevoman said:

 Thank you very much for the tips and help. I apriciate it. 👍🏻

 

1- my preamp does have tonecontrol and if I want I can add some base. I haven't done it yet but it is possible. Is +1 bass the same as 2 dB 30HZ?

Edit: let me be a bit more precise, is adding more bass the same as increasing the 30hz range? 

2-I'm sorry, but I don't you understand what you mean with this.

3-i haven't done much with adjusting the position of the speakers yet. First I want to get used to the sound so i can hear the small differences better. 

But I'll give this a try tonight. 

4-i will let you know 😉

 

Thanks for the link. I had read it before. An interesting post indeed.  There is also an interesting review online from someone who also had problems with the bass and had solved this by placing the speakers against the wall. (your tip nr3) 

 

https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/speaker/floor-standing/klipsch-cornwall-iv-speaker-review/

 

 

Hello @Flevoman

 

Already I must tell you that I am not American, I am French, so be indulgent if I express myself badly and that I write a wrong explanation: if so I think that the Klipsch fans will explain in good American what I trying to tell you.

 

Now the explanation of point 2: I explained this on page 3 post of June 9, 2021: 

 

 

To do the test you take a small cotton towel or felt, you roll it tight and you plug one of the 3 vents of CW4.

 

 

Felt on mine CW3

1626236255_chiffonBR.thumb.jpg.98c71cd570850acb97140209ed16e456.jpg

 

 

 


You're going to get something that looks like this red curve.

 

 

simulation made for CW3, but roughly similar to CW4

unnamed - Copie.jpg

 

 

 

It is interesting then to raise the curve by 2 or 3 db with the bass button of your preamp, the best is an equalizer centered on 30Hz in our case to compensate for the level between 20Hz and 100Hz approximately and obtain the blue curve: this is what you want. !!! >>>> Of course this remains theoretical and depending on your room and your configuration it may be a little different. And as everything is compromised, the defect is that it raises the distortion a little towards 20 > 100Hz: it's very good for a listening level of 70 to 90db, acceptable for 100 db, less good for 110 db, but the majority home listening is between 70 and 95db, so it's ok

 

Green curve: original CW4, red curve = cotton cloth or felt, blue curve: cloth + equalizer approximately + 3db at 30Hz

1991431947_CourbeBleue.jpg.ca8d0927555d87d6e44512cdbebccc8c.jpg

 

 

 

I specify that I did not invent anything, I just applied to Cornwall what Jean-Michel Le Cléac'h (the father of the famous Le Cléac'h horns) had found for the large Onken 360L.

 

 

 

Onken 360L measurements: red 6 vents, green 5 vents, blue 4 vents

 

IMG_9308-800x533.jpg

 

 

 

Tell me if it's ok for you  😁👍

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12 hours ago, Idontknow said:

 

I couldn't disagree more either. And, how do you expect to increase bass without a wall behind the listener? I don't think you're giving Flevoman as much credit as he deserves. Someone comes up with something constructive for once and you shoot it down at every angle between break in period and now it's the room. Both speakers are experiencing the same room. My room is set up the same way and it sounds amazing. I also have a room set up with the speakers so they face the direction of the long side of the room as well. There's nothing wrong with that room in the photo, certainly not a death knell. 

 

You can disagree all you like, no problem. But there is no denying that an enclosed room of the correct dimensions with adequate room treatment will give far better results than an open floor plan. No one is saying you don't like the sound you are getting with your system. But put that system in a better room and it will sound better.

 

Quote

Someone comes up with something constructive for once and you shoot it down at every angle between break in period and now it's the room.

 

Not sure what the hell this is all about. The only thing I said about break in is that he hasn't really heard what the speakers are capable of yet. That is the truth.

 

Quote

And, how do you expect to increase bass without a wall behind the listener?

 

This only furthers my point about open floor plans. Most of the time the listener has no rear wall. And what does your comment even mean? In an enclosed room with four walls and a door, the listener will always have a wall behind him. And better bass will always be had when you can pressurize the room easier.

 

You really need to relax, you get way too worked up about this stuff.

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12 hours ago, ODS123 said:

Besides, I'd rather sacrifice a tiny bit of audiophile perfection so as to more easily enjoy music in the company of others.  Great music - cued up by myself, or others - needs to be shared.  IMHO

Yes indeed and I always enjoy doing so.

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I’m sure that measurements could verify that improvements have indeed  been made  to the Cw4  , a flatter frequency response for example would qualify as an improvement , but unfortunately   many people would  prefer a frequency response that isn’t flat at all .  Case in point , it seems that many complain of a so called lack of bass in the   Cw4 , but a simple frequency sweep would  show that the bass is in fact there . The bass is there but it probably sounds a bit different than what the listener was accustomed  to , or maybe he just likes really thick bass or bass with more harmonic overtones , unfortunately even if the perfect  loudspeaker could be developed it would never be universally accepted as such , not even close. These new Cornwall  speakers are undoubtedly better than ever , but their  acceptance is dependent upon our flawed / varied perceptions . 

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39 minutes ago, Tom05 said:

I’m sure that measurements could verify that improvements have indeed  been made  to the Cw4  , a flatter frequency response for example would qualify as an improvement , but unfortunately   many people would  prefer a frequency response that isn’t flat at all .  Case in point , it seems that many complain of a so called lack of bass in the   Cw4 , but a simple frequency sweep would  show that the bass is in fact there . The bass is there but it probably sounds a bit different than what the listener was accustomed  to , or maybe he just likes really thick bass or bass with more harmonic overtones , unfortunately even if the perfect  loudspeaker could be developed it would never be universally accepted as such , not even close. These new Cornwall  speakers are undoubtedly better than ever , but their  acceptance is dependent upon our flawed / varied perceptions . 

Something wonderful is going to happen... thanks!

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7 hours ago, Flevoman said:

3-i haven't done much with adjusting the position of the speakers yet. First I want to get used to the sound so i can hear the small differences better. 

But I'll give this a try tonight.

 

Perceived bass level, smoothness, punch and tightness can be dramatically different for any loudspeaker in any room depending on loudspeaker and listener locations relative to room modes. Attention to this should be the first fundamental step taken when installing a loudspeaker and making judgments on it’s performance capabilities in the listening room.

 

Based on your reported dimensions and considering just one of the basic axial modes of your room the front wall to back wall axial modes (below 300Hz) fall around:

31.26 Hz

62.5 Hz

94.1 Hz

125.04 Hz

156.3 Hz

187.56 Hz

218.82 Hz

250.08 Hz

281.34 Hz

 

Since the Fundamentals and Harmonics of Bass Instrument among others along with Male and Female Vocals it is critical to find the best locations of the loudspeakers and listener in any given room to maximize the potential of the Loudspeaker/Room Setup.

 

Another important observation I have made over many times of setting up a system is how getting this frequency region correct leads to better perceived mid and high frequencies resulting in an overall presentation that now you find yourself forgetting your listening to the system and instead you have been drawn into the musical performance. 

 

System/Room setup is an art and skill that can lead to the magical illusions of real live performances in our listening rooms. 

 

miketn

 

This site can help with anyone wanting to explore the visualization and understanding of the importance of dealing with your room modes. 

 

 

 

 

 

AC4EA521-0A83-4C3A-867C-4B338C14DEA6.jpeg

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14 hours ago, Shakeydeal said:

 

You can disagree all you like, no problem. But there is no denying that an enclosed room of the correct dimensions with adequate room treatment will give far better results than an open floor plan. No one is saying you don't like the sound you are getting with your system. But put that system in a better room and it will sound better.

 

 

Not sure what the hell this is all about. The only thing I said about break in is that he hasn't really heard what the speakers are capable of yet. That is the truth.

 

 

This only furthers my point about open floor plans. Most of the time the listener has no rear wall. And what does your comment even mean? In an enclosed room with four walls and a door, the listener will always have a wall behind him. And better bass will always be had when you can pressurize the room easier.

 

You really need to relax, you get way too worked up about this stuff.

 

Alright Shakey, fair enough. Your comments obviously shed wisdom. Thanks

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