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BS Button List of worthy Myths


ClaudeJ1

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51 minutes ago, Curious_George said:

"I" challenge the idea of audible differences below a certain level... you can't believe your ears and brain, they lie to you. In the end, people have their favorite equipment and to argue about it is pointless. 

 

No argument from me on this.  I've long maintained that all modern amplifiers that are engineered to be linear  (notable exceptions might be low-watt tube amps) will be largely indistinguishable from each other when not driven into distortion.  These days even cheap AVR's have F/R, S/N, THD, Channel Separation, etc.. that exceed the threshold of our hearing.

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6 hours ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

Like, does anyone know or care what gauge wire is used on a battery for a 4 cylinder engine vs. an 8 cylinder one? As long as the engine starts, we trust that the proper wire was designed and used by the engineers for the purpose.

My personal experience on this (by no means scientific, comprehensive, or a suitable sample size) is that the more you pay for the car the better the cables and connectors are. I would say you don't care unless you live in the far north, MN, MI, SD, ND, WI, etc. I don't have a lot of experience being up there in winter, but what little I have has been quite memorable. When it is really, really cold in MN you don't stop your engine for more than 30 minutes to an hour to go into a store unless  the store provides electric plug-ins., like Byerlys or Lunds. You plug your car in when you get home or it won't start in the morning. So I'm guessing that's because the industry grew up in Michigan and surrounding areas, they figured out real quick what it was going to take to get enough current to the starter in winter (assuming the oil is preheated). 

 

[Has that changed? Does everyone in MN still order their car with an engine block heater? Or has 0W - 30/5W -30 changed that?]

 

In aviation you for sure care what the wire gauge is, and the construction. The operating manual specifies which engine to start first (it is always the one with the shortest battery cables). You hope that they did their homework because the wire size depends on a lot of factors beyond length like what altitude the aircraft typically operates, normal operating temperatures, etc., possible ranges. For example, you have to "derate" the standard wire specs the higher the normal cruising altitude. In our case that was 20,000 and that would derate the wire by about 15%. In other words, you figure out the current, the appropriate wire for that current at sea level, and then use a wire rated at least 115% above that. There is a trade off in aviation that is always at play - weight, because nearly all performance factors are subject to the inverse square law with weight being the number squared. 

 

For smaller single engine aircraft it is very common for them to come with aluminum battery cables simply because of weight (and of course cost is an added bonus). 

 

 

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23 minutes ago, Travis In Austin said:

[Has that changed? Does everyone in MN still order their car with an engine block heater? Or has 0W - 30/5W -30 changed that?]

 

I lived in Minneapolis for six years. Never heated my block. Never failed to start.

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Speaker sensitivity myth . Ok so while you guys have been debating the merits of battery cable size , I’ve been working  hard to keep Claude’s thread alive 🤓.For years I’ve listened to audio experts explain how speaker sensitivity/ efficiency doesn’t really matter because watts are easy and cheap . PWK didn’t agree, and I imagine that most of us on the forum wouldn’t agree either . If you like to play your  music loud and clean , efficiency means everything, particularly in larger rooms. 

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12 minutes ago, ODS123 said:

 

No argument from me on this.  I've long maintained that all modern amplifiers that are engineered to be linear  (notable exceptions might be low-watt tube amps) will be largely indistinguishable from each other when not driven into distortion.  These days even cheap AVR's have F/R, S/N, THD, Channel Separation, etc.. that exceed the threshold of our hearing.

John Meyer has spoken about this, and even though he is a speaker guy, his presentations have talked about speaker testing and how much we still don't know and are developing (his "M" noise for example).

 

First he talks about how Richard Heyser's article on time delay spectrometry changed his life forever. Then he typically gives the analogy to various specs and ratings for power amplifiers that came along, and the associated equipment that allowed him to test for things like power amplifiers that he later determined to make a difference and how they impacted his sound systems. His talk usually mentions something like "remember how it was before we could accurately test and verify slew rate, dampening factor, rise rate, settling time. . . . We now know that's what the differences were between amps, information that today is readily available. I was so excited when HP came out with their __________, because now we could start doing ___________. Well that's where we are in some ways with speaker and acoustics testing."

 

Heyser in his 1986 AES presentation gave an example of "layers of abstraction, something that we are all very familiar with that cannot be measured: the concept of "Chopin-ness." Heyser said that traditional measurements, where one parameter is plotted against another, fail to provide a complete picture of a component's sound quality. What we hear in live music is a multidimensional array of information (what @ClaudeJ1 mentioned earlier as 4D sound). With loudspeakers, the whole is greater than the sum of the routinely measured parts. Testing is only going to get you so far so you have to listen. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Travis In Austin said:

Testing is only going to get you so far so you have to listen. 

 

Years ago we were using a FFT spectrum analyzer to check the noise floor on a piece of equipment that my group had designed. The SA showed superb noise performance, yet when we listened we could clearly hear an unacceptably high noise floor. It took a bit of investigation, but it turned out that what we heard was impulse noise (a series of discrete clicks occurring often enough that they sounded like noise) in which, by sheer coincidence, the period of the impulses almost exactly matched the spacing between the FFTs. More often than not, the impulses occurred during the intervals in-between the FFTs, so they were rarely seen by the SA. 

 

Just one case in which what we measured did not agree with what we heard.

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7 hours ago, Curious_George said:

A speaker (or woofer more specifically) power tested on a Klippel System, assuming it survives, will be well broken in after that test. For power tests, pink noise is typically used unless there is some unusual requirement for the test.

We are unusual. 🙂

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5 hours ago, ODS123 said:


Did he really say that? Omg, he definitely would not be welcomed in most audiophile circles.  I  suspect he would challenge the very idea of audible differences between modern low THD amplifier’s.  

You understand you are talking about Paul W Klipsch. Lots of people who were very involved in this industry when it started knew that his character and integrity were impeccable. Flawed yes and open minded. So if “audiophiles” found his statements irritating, then irritate away. 

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2 hours ago, Tom05 said:

Speaker sensitivity myth . Ok so while you guys have been debating the merits of battery cable size , I’ve been working  hard to keep Claude’s thread alive 🤓.For years I’ve listened to audio experts explain how speaker sensitivity/ efficiency doesn’t really matter because watts are easy and cheap . PWK didn’t agree, and I imagine that most of us on the forum wouldn’t agree either . If you like to play your  music loud and clean , efficiency means everything, particularly in larger rooms. 

Well kinda. Efficiency lowers distortion. That is mostly what mr K objected to. 

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Just now, Chief bonehead said:

Well kinda. Efficiency lowers distortion. That is mostly what mr K objected to. 

 

I have noticed that highly efficient (or highly sensitive, take your choice) speakers also handle dynamics better than inefficient speakers. At least, that's how my ears hear it.

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6 hours ago, ODS123 said:


Did he really say that? Omg, he definitely would not be welcomed in most audiophile circles.

PWK was Welcomed by all Audiophile circles   , although  He was not one to accept all the invitations ....... PWK's Friends in the Speaker Industry , were  all the Giants in the Business , and amongst all of them , He was never challenged , some tried , but most failed .

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11 minutes ago, Edgar said:

 

I have noticed that highly efficient (or highly sensitive, take your choice) speakers also handle dynamics better than inefficient speakers. At least, that's how my ears hear it.

The simplicity of the concept……keep the diaphragm from moving……..

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1 hour ago, Chief bonehead said:

Well kinda. Efficiency lowers distortion. That is mostly what mr K objected to. 

The last part of my post is my own observation,  the majority of low sensitivity speakers  struggle at high listening levels , dynamics and impact suffers , they have limited high volume performance ,not exactly the same concerns that Mr K. identified , although undoubtedly aware of. Just pointing out another advantage of high efficiency.

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The idea of wires needing to break in (do all the electrons need a few hours to get properly lined up?) seems a bit unlikely, but transducers like speakers and phono cartridges have moving parts with suspensions, and those suspensions do seem to be a bit stiff out of the box.  Some speakers and cartridges may run in more quickly than others, but they all seem to need it.

 

With a moving magnet cartridge, replacing the stylus is like getting a new cartridge, in that the suspension of the cantilever needs to lose its initial stiffness.  The last time I replaced a stylus, instead of counting in hours, I counted in album sides.  After ten LP sides, the bass drum sound greatly improved, going from sounding like a stick smacking a sheet of cardboard to a nasty sounding drum.  By twenty sides, it was much better, but it took a good twenty-five album sides before the new stylus (or new cartridge) reached its peak performance.

 

With speakers, if you have the opportunity to hear a speaker with at least twenty hours of use, and beside it a brand new one, see if you can ignore the difference in sound.  With quality speakers like Klipsch, whose drivers may have been run briefly by the original manufacturer (Eminence, etc.), and again run briefly during final testing, the difference may not be so obvious, but with cheap speakers that are built, boxed up, and sent out, without ever being run, you can hear how a truly never used speaker can sound.

 

Years ago, I got a Dell computer, complete with keyboard, monitor, speakers, and subwoofer (?).  Naturally, the little speakers sounded a bit tinny, but I soon got used to it.  The computer turned out to be defective, overheating, jamming up, and smelling funny.  I called Dell about it, and they sent a tech, who declared it to be definitely defective, so it would be replaced.  Dell wanted the whole kit returned, even the keyboard, monitor, and speakers, although only the CPU tower was defective.  Fine by me.  The new computer arrived within a few days, before I'd boxed up the bad one.  this was good, because then I saw exactly how to pack it up.

 

To finally get to the point, when I plugged in the new speakers, they sounded tinny, but the month-old ones no longer sounded like that.  In a direct A/B comparison, there was no mistaking which ones were which.  The month-old speakers sounded clearer, with better (but not great, of course) bass reproduction.  There was a very obvious difference between the two sets of speakers.  The new computer was fine, and in a few weeks, the new speakers sounded fine, too.

 

So that's both ends of the signal chain.  Transducers, and other parts that move, don't move perfectly when they're brand new.  That's my experience.

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3 hours ago, ODS123 said:

Let's assume for argument that he would have found pricey speaker cables, interconnects, DACs, amplifiers, etc.. to be BS AND was very outspoken in his belief (ie., pointing to his BS button whenever visiting retailers).  

You don't need to assume that about PWK and cables, he was very outspoken about it - numerous Dope From Hope articles (sent to all Klipsch dealers), a couple of articles to AES under the pseudonym O. Gadfly Hertz, and many more anecdotes where he pointed out things like lamp cord was all that was needed. I don't believe that he ever went to a dealer and flashed a BS Button to any customers. @bhendrix could comment about that in detail, he was the COO for one of the largest, if not largest, Klipsch dealers in the USA. PWK would fly in and he recalls many visits with PWK.

 

PWK handed out a lot of the buttons at CES shows. His BS comments was mostly directed at other speaker  manufacturers, their specs, or their claims of a "major discovery." Another brunt of his wit was some "Hi Fi" magazines. His Dope From Hope articles would reference the "claim" in a general way, never specifically naming the company, or he would say he recently read a hi-fi magazine article that said (some principle of audio) and he would proceed to explain in "single piston" language and words why it was all wrong. 

 

On amplifiers and his thoughts. PWK was at the "Dawn of Hi-Fi." His running buddies were Saul Marantz, name like Pickering, Shure, Bozak, and even a couple of guys, Frank McIntosh and Gordon Gow. 

 

There is famous correspondence between Mr. McIntosh and PWK, a series of letters, where PWK wanted a loaner preamp/amp set, which they gave him. It was a bit contentious at first as PWK asked for a loaner amp (this was 1951) but said his tests on their new preamp/amp combo showed it didn't come up to spec. but he had figure out a way to fix "their problem" and he wanted it some modifications. PWK was a little abrupt with his first letter Re: the modifications, and Frank's response showed he was a little miffed, PWK responded back and apologized for "overstepping the bounds of propriety" and then detailed the rationale behind every modification that he was requesting and why they would be better with his 2-way Khorn. He added that the "roll off" and "bump" he found may have been because the amp was damaged or altered. He added that his Houston Klipsch dealer would only sell a Khorn in a combo with the McIntosh amp because it was the only thing at the time with low enough distortion to truly complement the Khorn - that it was way better than any "home brew" alternative. His words, not mine.

 

PWK in this correspondence with Frank McIntosh was calling bullshit (without every using the word) on his 20 to 20 claim, but offering a way to get there, and more specifically, get there in a way that maximized the attributes of PWK's 2 way speaker, and more importantly, would really compliment the 3-way Khorn which was very soon on the way. PWK would need a flat, low distortion for his 3-way Khorn because there would finally be a way to broadcast music with a much wider bandwidth. 

 

Mr. McIntosh wrote PWK back and said he understood his , that they were loaning him the requested equipment, with the modifications he requested and told PWK "I like your attitude" and looked forward to a mutually beneficial relationship for "many years to come." That was the 50W-2 Unity Coupled Amplifier and preamp which went from 20 Hz to 20 kHz with less than 1% distortion.

 

What us youngsters fail to realize is that the typical audio amplifiers at the time (and most radio stations) had a bandwidth of about 50hz to 10Khz with 5% or more THD. The 50W-2 was a game changer for Hi-Fidelity because of the low distortion. This same year PWK was making the Khorn available in a 3 way version to go from lows 30s to up over 16 kHz, which was the range of this brand new thing that was being bought by radio stations across the country, the Ampex 200 tape machine. Prior to this time he was sometimes having to build his own amps and preamps. One preamp he built the volume knob is marked from 0 to 11 - no bullshit. 

 

Others have posted in here the evolution of amps they saw in Paul's home, including solid state professional like Crown and so on. He could have any amps he wanted with a phone call. I think the big question is at what point could he avoid the temptation to tear them apart and figure out how to improve them. 

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1 hour ago, ODS123 said:

@Travis In Austin An excellent read, thanks!!

 

Modern day amplifiers are so linear there is little differentiating them aside from aesthetics and feature sets.  ..In a way, audio was more fun back in the 50's when differences b/w amplifiers were actually audible.  

 

Still audible if you care to listen carefully. Maybe not if you are a casual listener.

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23 hours ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

Like, does anyone know or care what gauge wire is used on a battery for a 4 cylinder engine vs. an 8 cylinder one? As long as the engine starts, we trust that the proper wire was designed and used by the engineers for the purpose.

Yes. I own a 90's Ducati motorcycle and it's well recognized that the wiring battery->solenoid->starter and grounds were undersized by the factory engineers. The engines will, of course, startwith standard cableing, but the improvement from better cables is immediate and quite obvious in cold starts. Rather than buy the expensive aftermarket kits with low-oxygen wires, etc (sound familiar?), I just made my own from stranded welding cable.

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17 hours ago, Chief bonehead said:

Well kinda. Efficiency lowers distortion. That is mostly what mr K objected to. 

He gave me the same answer he gave in Kevin's video, about 4 years prior, and one year before you came aboard in 1986.

He got a Silver Medal for his contributions on Intermodulation Distortion in loudspeakers (I was an AES member at the time per his recommendations).

 

Amplitude modulation creates sidebands NOT present in the original signal. AFAICR, it was based on 40 Hz. modulating 400 Hz. Keeping in mind that at the same sound pressure level, the Woofer excursion is approximately 80 times greater at 40 than at 400, which is the cause of the IM distortion. Horns minimize cone motion, therefore, minimize distortion. So sidebands of 360 and 440 Hz. not originally present showed on an FFT Spectrum Analyzer at 1,000 times greater than any amplifier ever made, yet still to this day totally ignored by publishers.

 

After spending Lab time with you, I recall you pointing out that greatest benefit of horn loading for lower distortion came from the woofer sections. But realities of wavelengths and SIZE explains why most horn are made for tweeters, not woofers even at Klipsch.

 

I recall PWK using the term "approximately proportional" when talking about lowering IM distortion. I think his original test was with an 8" driver as Direct Radiator vs. Horn Loading Said driver and measuring the difference. With the same Voltage to the driver, the horn loaded measurements showed a 15 decibel Increase in SPL, while simultaneously, reducing IM distortion by 25 db. One of the few times in life where non-linear result works in a positive manner!

 

No speaker company EVER puts IM distortion in their specs because the numbers would be too Gross to publish!

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