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BS Button List of worthy Myths


ClaudeJ1

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9 hours ago, Islander said:

 

What keeps this debate going is that it’s not that easy to get a visual indication that a component is sufficiently run in, unlike with engines.  As a motorcycle mechanic who sometimes worked on racing engines, my own and others, I learned to check for full break-in of parts, to ensure that maximum performance would be available.  When you build an engine, especially 2-stroke engines that can be quickly and easily disassembled, you can see whether the piston rings are fully seated, i.e., the full width of the rings is contacting the cylinder walls.  Before they’re fully seated, they won’t have their full sealing ability, so full compression won’t be reached.  This level of performance is more important in racing engines, of course, and they get inspected much more closely and frequently than engines for street use.

 

With the 2-stroke engines, you can even see the state of the piston rings without taking the engine apart, because you can just take off the exhaust pipes and look in through the exhaust ports to see the rings.  You can also inspect the cylinder walls, in case of a suspected seizure, for example.

 

Other parts break in, too, like brake pads.  Once again, you can just pop them out after they’ve been in use for a little while and see if they have contact all the way across their faces, or just at the edge, which obviously won’t give you full braking performance.

 

Contrast those things with speakers or phono cartridges.  In the audio parts, there’s no visual indication whether the parts just came out of the box or have been in use for some time.  You can’t just grab a cart’s cantilever and give it a wiggle.  And as for capacitors, we hear about how capacitors have to “form”, which happens after they’re used a few times.  

 

Claude, you must be familiar with this term from photo flash units, which use capacitors to build up the high voltage that’s then dumped in a few milliseconds to provide the bright flash needed to give the desired illumination.  In flash owner’s manuals and discussions, we read about how capacitors need to form after having been out of use for a while, so they should be charged and discharged a few times before actually using them to take a picture.

 

Do audio capacitors also need to form?  And is there a way to know if this ideal state has been achieved?  This would suggest that capacitors perform better when they’re continually in use, warmed up, in other words.  This could be why some solid state amplifiers are described as needing a full 24 hours to warm up.  Since the temperature of every component in the amplifier should have stabilized within a few hours at most, this suggests that temperature is not the actual factor that indicates whether the amplifier is ready to operate at its optimum level.

 

To some people, the difference between a fully warmed-up amplifier and a cold one is like the difference between day and night, but to others, myself included, the difference is not that obvious. Reviews sometimes mention this, but don’t provide any test numbers to back up this assertion, so we’re back to “the opinion of the golden ear”.

 

And what about tube amplifiers?  It must take some time for all that iron to reach optimum temperature, or does it make any difference at all?

 

I’d rather listen to music than worry about things that are inaudible to many of us.

Car racing engines when built right do not require breaking in. The use of torque plates for every attached part on the engine block enables the engine to break in on the race track. Drag cars much the same. But those engines get really expensive. 

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25 minutes ago, ODS123 said:

sheesh...  Breakin-in (beyond a few minutes); Amp warm up (beyond a few moments) are pretty much acknowledged myths.  What I see from break-in believers above are quasi sciency-esque but largely nonsensical or anecdotal accounts where no effort is made to account for bias.


I can assure you that some amplifiers like the First Watt F3 takes from 30 minutes to an hour (yes I have measured this)to reach a stable temperature and this is very audible as a shift in tonal balance, clarity and imaging especially..

 

IMHO the F3 is one of the best amplifiers within its power range once it reaches its stable operating temperature. 

 

miketn

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43 minutes ago, ODS123 said:

 Amp warm up (beyond a few moments) are pretty much acknowledged myths.  

Except when it comes to class A SS amplifiers. They sound the best when they reach their optimal heat temperature. They are recommended to warm up for an hour before serious listening. Before they reach this temperature they still sound good but sound better when they reach the  warm up operating temperature. Passlabs recommends that some of their very expensive line stage amplifiers sound best after 24 hours of being on and to never cut it off. I am not going to dispute this fact with Nelson Pass if he says it is true. The fact is when a transistor is ran hot it sounds better, that is until it self destructs. BJT's have what is called thermal runaway at a certain point. Most class A SS amplifiers that I am aware of use mosfets instead of BJT's for this reason. 

 

Tube amplifiers benefit as well for a short time being on to stabilize. Most recognize tubes do not perform best until the are used for a 100 to 200 hours. 

 

I have one class D amplifier amplifier I built that was terrible lacking in bass when I first fired it up. After a few minutes it produced the best bass I have ever heard. Same experience with the second one I built. Only took a few minutes though. 

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31 minutes ago, henry4841 said:

Car racing engines when built right do not require breaking in. The use of torque plates for every attached part on the engine block enables the engine to break in on the race track. Drag cars much the same. But those engines get really expensive. 

not really ,  there is a prior testing phase which is  a  break-in  whether in drag , or Indy or Nascar or F1

 

All racing engines including motors , transmissions ,  are tested on Dynos and some like F1 cars are further tested in wind tunnels  in a  car  for maximum efficiency , and  the Break-in is done during these run-time  sequences until the peak performance is reached  , and until this is completed , the parts are not considered to be broken in  ,  then the break-in oil /fluids are dumped ,and  break-in residues are filtered prior to the engine being run in the race car , on the track .

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17 minutes ago, 001 said:

not really ,  there is a prior testing phase which is  a  break-in  whether in drag , or Indy or Nascar or F1

 

All racing engines including motors , transmissions ,  are tested on Dynos and some like F1 cars are further tested in wind tunnels  in a  car  for maximum efficiency , and  the Break-in is done during these run-time  sequences until the peak performance is reached  , and until this is completed , the parts are not considered to be broken in  ,  then the break-in oil /fluids are dumped ,and  break-in residues are filtered prior to the engine being run in the race car , on the track .

I was involved in racing engines in my younger years but if you think you know better. A racing engine, such as a Nascar engine, is built to last just long enough for the race, very short time. They cut every bit of weight on every part. If it is a 500 mile race they only build it to last a bit more then 500 miles. They do test it and change the fluids but not what we call for a breaking in. It requires no breaking in unless you call a few minutes running breaking in. When asked by novices about breaking in a racing engine we always told them we break it in on the race track. 

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1 hour ago, mikebse2a3 said:

I can assure you that some amplifiers like the First Watt F3 takes from 30 minutes to an hour (yes I have measured this)t

 

Well, I humbly stand corrected.  If there are measurable changes in THD, S/N, Channel Separation, etc.  that take place during the first 60 min. - that are within the threshold of our hearing - then I can understand.  ..But as for any audio component that takes hours of time to stabillze (longer than what you're referring to) that would be an example of poor electrical engineering, imho..  

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The only true parts of a car engine on a show room floor that require a break in period are the cylinder bores and piston rings because the holes are not perfectly round. They require some wear to perfectly seal. If the cylinder bores are perfectly round to start with and using the modern coated piston rings they seat within a few minutes. To achieve this requires torque plates for every part on the engine block before boring the cylinder. Most do not know how much work goes into a racing engine block before a piston with rings is installed. First the block has to be decked then bored using torque plates. There is much more that goes into the process of building a racing motor but this is a simplified explanation.  

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10 minutes ago, ODS123 said:

 

Well, I humbly stand corrected.  If there are measurable changes in THD, S/N, Channel Separation, etc.. - that are within the threshold of our hearing - then I can understand.  ..But as for any audio component that takes hours of time to stabillze (longer than what you're referring to) that would be an example of poor electrical engineering, imho..  

Basically you are correct with most mass produced electronic products. It is just when you get into serious discussions among audiophiles does warming up comes into play. I would say 90% of the population will never know the difference. I have noticed the difference after listening for an hour or more with a cold class A SS amplifier.

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1 minute ago, henry4841 said:

Basically you are correct with most mass produced electronic products. It is just when you get into serious discussions among audiophiles does warming up comes into play. I would say 90% of the population will never know the difference. 

 

Well... and I would submit that with the other 10%, it's likely all in their heads.  

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14 hours ago, veloceleste said:

My troll question of the day:  Does your system sound better after being allowed to “warm up” after a certain amount of time? Can any sonic change, if said to be noticed, be proven through measurement? 🥸

 

Yes. Tube systems take about 2 hours until they reach full operating temp ad the images present themselves as they are capable and should.

 

I've not measured it. Is there a measurement instrument designed to assess/convey how well a speaker images??

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11 minutes ago, ODS123 said:

 

Well... and I would submit that with the other 10%, it's likely all in their heads.  

If you buy and use a class A SS amplifier and your hearing is good I guarantee you will hear the difference between a cold class A SS amplifier and one that has reached 55C. You will have to be serious about music first though. The 90% I referenced call serious listening when they are riding in their car or doing something else while music is playing in their home.

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1 hour ago, henry4841 said:

I was involved in racing engines in my younger years

things have changed  a lot since the 70 's  ,engines turn  10-15-20k RPM  .......Dynos are  now mainstream.....ECU's... Electronics....Fuel injection engine management systems.....Turbos with impellers turning 150-200k RPM   .......Super chargers ----Semi- Automatic transmissions....Dual clutches.... Synthetic lubricants....

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1 hour ago, henry4841 said:

Car racing engines when built right do not require breaking in. The use of torque plates for every attached part on the engine block enables the engine to break in on the race track. Drag cars much the same. But those engines get really expensive. 

A colleague and I built an engine for a stock car racer. He ran a few trial laps ahead of the first race and declared it the strongest engine he had ever had in the car. Once the race started, it lasted for all of three laps. Sad day...LOL

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10 minutes ago, 001 said:

things have changed  a lot since the 70 's  ,engines turn  10-15-20k RPM  .......Dynos are  now mainstream.....ECU's... Electronics....Fuel injection engine management systems.....Turbos with impellers turning 150-200k RPM   .......Super chargers ----Semi- Automatic transmissions....Dual clutches.... Synthetic lubricants.....

What has all this to do with what you call breaking in. And I was not talking about the 70's if that even matters. I am speaking from experience of machine shop work on racing engines. But if you are determined to have the last word go ahead and I will refrain for talking about this anymore. I know I am correct and do not have to prove anything. Let's just get back to talking about audio on this audio forum. 

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5 minutes ago, CWelsh said:

A colleague and I built an engine for a stock car racer. He ran a few trial laps ahead of the first race and declared it the strongest engine he had ever had in the car. Once the race started, it lasted for all of three laps. Sad day...LOL

Nelson Pass had a competitor that built a hot running amplifier and said it was the best one he had ever heard. For 10 minutes. 

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11 hours ago, Islander said:

Claude, you must be familiar with this term from photo flash units, which use capacitors to build up the high voltage that’s then dumped in a few milliseconds to provide the bright flash needed to give the desired illumination.  In flash owner’s manuals and discussions, we read about how capacitors need to form after having been out of use for a while, so they should be charged and discharged a few times before actually using them to take a picture.

I worked as an engineer for an underwater photography company for a few years in Indy. I designed flash and LED units.

 

Your point about forming capacitors came from my work as a Wedding Photographer, not an Engineer, which, when using Mamiya and Hasselblad cameras, needed 100-200 Watt-Seconds of energy delivered to the flash tube for each photo. It was a sort of "use it or lose it" proposition, just like our bodies. Much like planes, which are designed to fly and not sit an in hangar.

 

My bad for using an "outside the box" car analogy to assign percentages. For those cases the key thing is Frictional Wear, which is off the mark for Woofers.

 

There is Zero (or insignificantly very little) Frictional Wear in a Woofer Driver! The voice coil is suspended in the Frictionless Magnetic field, so it has Zero Wear! It's the Spring Mechanism of the combined Spider and Edge surround near the Hole Diameter of the Woofer that "Loosens Up."

 

So, whatever INSIGNIFICANT amount of the EXAGGERATED break-in MYTH exists, only accounts for the SUSPENSION component's influence as is very quickly shifts lower by a few Hertz at most. Tweeter break in is similar.

 

For Electronics, the question remains about "warmup time," but again, it's EXAGGERATED to the level of a MYTH.

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1 hour ago, henry4841 said:

If you buy and use a class A SS amplifier and your hearing is good I guarantee you will hear the difference between a cold class A SS amplifier and one that has reached 55C. You will have to be serious about music first though. The 90% I referenced call serious listening when they are riding in their car or doing something else while music is playing in their home.

Thermal Stability (homeostasis in Medicine) is what you speak of here. Warmup time which Mostly applies to HOT amplifiers, like Tubes and Class A. To a much lesser degree in class AB as well. But Class D should be "warmed up" by the time you get to your Listening Chair, or in my case INSTANTLY, since I never shut off my power amps, only the signal processor.

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2 hours ago, Audible Nectar said:

 

Yes. Tube systems take about 2 hours until they reach full operating temp ad the images present themselves as they are capable and should.

 

I've not measured it. Is there a measurement instrument designed to assess/convey how well a speaker images??

Warm up is a DIFFERENT, variable matter from "Break-In Exaggerations and Myths" and others. But OK.

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2 hours ago, henry4841 said:

Basically you are correct with most mass produced electronic products. It is just when you get into serious discussions among audiophiles does warming up comes into play. I would say 90% of the population will never know the difference. I have noticed the difference after listening for an hour or more with a cold class A SS amplifier.

 

Some amps do have a warm-up period, such as SS Class-A and Class AB. They need time to warm up and reach thermal equilibrium. That is a fact. My Krell KSA-50 clones need to warm-up to sound the best. 

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