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BS Button List of worthy Myths


ClaudeJ1

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59 minutes ago, Islander said:

 

Naturally.  The seat is finally broken in and is much less painful to do a long ride on.  That’s your primary contact point, right?

 

I have a 49 year old Brooks saddle on my mountain bike. I'm pretty sure that it's broken-in.

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1 hour ago, ODS123 said:

So, as I see it, this discussion can be summarized as following:

 

Break-in that is barely measurable and barely audible in 20 HRs or more: MAYBE.

 

>20+ hours of Break-in that can take a speaker from "Unimpressed" to "Love it":  MYTH.

 

If you don't love your new speakers right out of the box, don't expect "break-in" to change this.

I don't think you can generalize from the information provided.

 

 

Break-in that is barely measurable and barely audible in 20 HRs or more: MAYBE.

 

It depends on how you break it in. CBH gave the way he did it for 20 minutes to get drivers to natural state, and at what frequency. For example, on woofers, 80% of max excursion for 20 minutes at [can't remember what number he gave]. One thing that remains unknow is how listening to music at home get's you to the natural state of the drivers. What we also know, by deduction, (it wasn't explicitly stated) is that the drivers have to reach their natural state in order for the balancing network to meet it's intended design. I have no idea what level you need to play music at to get the woofer to 80% of max excursion. I don't know if there is some linear relationship if it is as some other level. E.g., if you run it at 40% of max excursion for 40 minutes is equivalent. 

 

>20+ hours of Break-in that can take a speaker from "Unimpressed" to "Love it":  MYTH.

 

I didn't see a number of hours for music, and at what level, will for sure get you to the natural state of the drivers. Is 20 hours at 80 dB enough? 85 dB? 100 dB? The only variables I saw that the designer/engineer/manufacturer used was 80% of max excursion for woofers at a particular excursion. If music, regardless of SPL, and FR will get you to natural state after 20 hours than it is a myth. However, I didn't see anything that says that is the case. 

 

If you don't love your new speakers right out of the box, don't expect "break-in" to change this.

 

I think that is the opposite of what was established. The balancing networks are designed for drivers in their natural state. Assuming CBH designed them properly they are going to sound their best after the drivers reach natural state. The subjective premise that you will love them out of the box, or love them after 20 hours, or even love them out of the box, but hate them after 20 hours is going to vary from person to person. 

 

What is known is they will change over time. Whether someone can hear the change is going to vary from person to person. Over what time is going to vary (I'm assuming) depending on what music they listen to and at what level. 

 

All of this is academic however as the typical Klipsch aficionado is going to put in a new amp, new receiver, new source, (or a combination of all 3) in well under the 20 hours mark and so there is no way to tell what the heck is going on. 

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17 minutes ago, Islander said:

 

Aren’t the drivers also run for at least a few seconds in the factory where they’re built?

For a "test", it's a sweep test at the end of the line. The person that does it signs the "Tested by" part of the label. 

 

It's no where close to 20 minutes at 80% of max excursion of the woofer, and a constant frequency, nor the 20 minutes at a constant frequency for the compression drivers. 

 

HOWEVER, to your point, my assumption is that KGI does not specify that the driver manufacturer run-in the drivers in a certain way prior to shipment to Klipsch. Maybe they are required to run them in before shipment to Klipsch (my reasonable assumption is that if Roy is running them in for work in the lab, I'm assuming they don't arrive already run-in). If the driver makers do in fact run them in then there should be little to no break-in required. 

 

CBH didn't address (at least that I saw) what the equivalent of music through the speakers would be required to get the drivers to natural state (assuming they but in new, out of the box, drivers with no run-in). 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Travis In Austin said:

All of this is academic however as the typical Klipsch aficionado is going to put in a new amp, new receiver, new source, (or a combination of all 3) in well under the 20 hours mark and so there is no way to tell what the heck is going on. 

😁 Thanks!

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On 5/15/2022 at 9:29 AM, michaelwjones said:

How about a category for mysterious add-ons which transform the acoustics of any room, interconnect, or component merely by their existence in your listening environment: magic dots, stones, disks that balance close proximity electromagnetic fields, etc.?

 

One I just discovered is the $3000  "HighEnd Novum PMR Premium Mk.II - Room Acoustic Resonator Extraordinaire;" the brass dish on top of the stand. While it just sits, "It sweetens and clarifies the sound with more focus and definition." And its endorsed...

 

I can [cautiously] buy into cables and interconnects, but mysticism for my setup isn't going to cut it.... Plus I'm pretty sure I can get one at Pier 1 for less than $3K.

 

 

 

image.png.f1294ef3953438d394b782b35b932fe0.png

Well this one is still alive. 

 

That should get a special class of BS Button.

 

P.S. What's the cost of that thing?

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13 hours ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

It's not a need, but it would have been nice. Like PWK used to do. I did but not accumulate for 36 years because I was not hired to do that for a living. I guess I'm just guilty of too small of a sampling (short on data, unlike you).

 

It just puzzles me that you waste your time cherry picking this kind of BS and making contributions of only a few words each time. You are an amazingly prolific speaker designer. No one will ever question your integrity. I'm just basically saying it's a waste of personal time on your part, and it comes off as simply being lazy writing , rather than educational.

Well Claude. Believe it or not…..I’m not on here to impress you. It’s my time to waste and if I want to be lazy then I will be. I bet…..some people don’t have the same trouble believing that this might only be bs to you and might…..just might have lowered their eyes just enough to find this somewhat “educational”. 

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6 hours ago, ODS123 said:

So, as I see it, this discussion can be summarized as following:

 

Break-in that is barely measurable and barely audible in 20 HRs or more: MAYBE.

 

>20+ hours of Break-in that can take a speaker from "Unimpressed" to "Love it":  MYTH.

 

If you don't love your new speakers right out of the box, don't expect "break-in" to change this.

Oh wow!!  Lol!

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5 hours ago, Islander said:

 

Chief Bonehead explained how Klipsch drivers are run in before the speakers leave the factory, which takes care of much of the initial part of break-in.  The customer only experiences the last part of it, which is why it seems to be barely noticeable, or even unnoticeable, to some of the commenters in this thread.

Pat……thank you for paying attention and having an open mind to absorb it all. Yes. You are correct. 

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4 minutes ago, Chief bonehead said:

Pat……thank you for paying attention and having an open mind to absorb it all. Yes. You are correct. 

So they are all "run in" for 20 minutes either by Klipsch, or the driver maker before they are installed into the enclosures?

 

If that's the case are the drivers in their "natural state" when they leave the factory? Or should consumers/end-users expect at least some additional time for "break in"?

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5 hours ago, Travis In Austin said:

 

 

The fact that drivers require some sort of break-in is NOT a myth at the design level deserving of a BS Button. We know there will be some changes to get to "natural state." Bonehead can see and (apparently) hear them before and after run-in.

 

What gets put into the speakers which reach the consumer is new, out of the box drivers, no run-in. 

 

See islander’s post. There is some break in to hope built klipsch speakers. 

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5 hours ago, Travis In Austin said:

No, I don't think he said that. It's a very, very critical point. What he said was "he" (i.e., the lab) runs in drivers for their purposes - selection of drivers for use in a product, design of balancing networks, etc. He said that in addressing whether drivers need some time to achieve their "natural state." That's "his world." It has nothing to do what what goes into end-user products. 

 

Brand new, fresh out of the box, drivers go into the products made in Hope (at least from what I have observed). They do one "test" at the end of the line on Heritage products and it takes less than 5 seconds. I don't believe there is any run-in of any type on the drivers that go into the end user products. 

.

We also do an acid test break in. In production. As every compression driver is 100 percent tested. This is get it to natural state but not fully broken in. It helps us maintain consistency in the drivers freq and imp response. In other words, bad drivers tend to stand out very easily in the test. 

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2 minutes ago, Chief bonehead said:

See islander’s post. There is some break in to hope built klipsch speakers. 

I did, and I responded that I saw your earlier post where you said you ran them in for 20 minutes for purposes of being able to properly design the balancing network. To get them to their "natural state."

 

But I didn't see any where that you stated that they were also ran them in in the production process (or had the driver maker do it) before they were installed into the speakers. It that's the case do they still need some time to run in?

 

Is there something after "natural state" that additional play time in the home or theater that is further break in?

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2 minutes ago, Chief bonehead said:

We also do an acid test break in. In production. As every compression driver is 100 percent tested. This is get it to natural state but not fully broken in. It helps us maintain consistency in the drivers freq and imp response. In other words, bad drivers tend to stand out very easily in the test. 

You answered it, there is something beyond natural state. 

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7 minutes ago, Chief bonehead said:

We also do an acid test break in. In production. As every compression driver is 100 percent tested. This is get it to natural state but not fully broken in. It helps us maintain consistency in the drivers freq and imp response. In other words, bad drivers tend to stand out very easily in the test. 

It's another topic for another day, in another thread, but I find it fascinating that the drivers could get out of the driver factory without testing. You obviously test for a reason, and apparently "bad drivers" pop up at some frequency (1 out of 100, 1,000, 10,000?). 

 

"Acid test" was part of a book title, isn't it more of a "litmus test"? (Pink/Blue, pass/fail)

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