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ClaudeJ1

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On 5/28/2022 at 10:18 PM, 001 said:

ApplePly is a new Variant Made in the USA  for Birch  grade plywood  ,  0 Formaldehyde , and heavier than BB

 

What is ApplePly? | Wood

I have looked for this but have not found any locally. I hope to try this out some day and it appears to be the only possible alternative to BB quality wise.

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1 hour ago, Travis In Austin said:

@HDBRbuilder would tell you the exact same thing. When they got all of that Russian Baltic Birch they started to figure out different uses for it. The backs of Heresy's, but also Cornwall motor boards, etc. He would go through 2 or 3 router bits to do the same work as one on birch ply. The bits got so hot they burnished (not sure the right term, but when the heat gets intense enough to change the color of the metal and allow the cutting edges to dull) and they would sometimes explode. He had several bits come apart on him. 

I would be curious to know how fast and deep he was running those bits and what type of bit, straight or helical for instance, he was running..

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18 minutes ago, Dave A said:

Agree 100%. You build a correctly sized bass bin matched with 12" woofers, like perhaps the 400 watt Eminence Kappa 12A, and it is as close to pure horn distortion free bliss as you will get. Explosions and drums are far more precise as is everything else withing the range of your bass bin output. There is no mushy sound from something like this. My days of wanting 15" woofers are over except for the Super MWM's which also happen to be made out of 25MM Baltic Birch and do really well with K-43's.

Just to clarify, that quote was from an article that Edgar has posted. I'm not smart or experienced enough to say something like "For tight accurate bass, a heavier rigid material, 25mm birch plywood, provides the cleanest, fastest, most tuneful bass." But the author seemed to know what he was talking about.

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21 minutes ago, Dave A said:

There is no mushy sound from something like this. My days of wanting 15" woofers are over except for the Super MWM's which also happen to be made out of 25MM Baltic Birch and do really well with K-43's.

So I'm trying to clarify when you use the term "Baltic Birch" what are you referring to? People seem to refer to Baltic Birch as anything from Europe "Euro Birch", others as Birch Ply that is void free regardless of origin, others as only from Norway and Russian (but not Belarus).

 

For example, what is Chinese Baltic Birch? Obviously it is Birch Ply, made in a way that is supposed to be similar to Baltic Birch?

 

The difference in Baltic Birch plywood and regular Birch ply, to my understanding, is color, exterior grade, and the GLUE. I have seen people refer to domestic birch plywood that is specified a certain way, number of plys, glue, etc., as "Baltic Birch", kind of like Champaign - Champaign only comes from a specific region of France, but people call any sparkinging wine "Champaign."

 

The high end commercial speaker makers (Klipsch, Meyer Sound, Function, Danley, etc.) use Birch Ply (not Baltic Birch, if that term means plywood from Russia/Norway or even Euro Birch (Belarus). 

 

What is "Baltic Birch" in Home Depot? Is it the real deal? Or can be made anywhere but follows a certain design/manufacturing process - number of plys, or type of glue?

 

 

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36 minutes ago, Dave A said:

I would be curious to know how fast and deep he was running those bits and what type of bit, straight or helical for instance, he was running..

Here is the quote from @hdbr in another thread I found. 

 

Begin Quote

 

NO OFFENSE INTENDED, BUT....First of all your post is chock-full of assumptions! and errors on what was used in NORMAL PRODUCTION!  I must have explained this at least a hundred times on this forum since the late 1990's!!  Doesn't anybody do a forum search before they write a post, anymore?

 

In the late 1950's and through the 1960-'s into the early 1970's Klipsch used finely veneered lumbercore panels, and marine grade fir panels for almost EVERYTHING in varying thicknesses according to what the specs for the speaker were.

 

Klipsch used Baltic birch for folded-horn panels in K-horns...not for Heresy, Cornwall, La Scala  or Belle cabinet-body main panels!  That NEVER happened!  PERIOD!  It was experimentally-TRIED, but it just ate up too many saw blades and router bits!...so the idea was shelved early-on!  We had an ungodly amount of it which the company had picked-up very inexpensively...made in the USSR!...sometime shorty after I started working at Klipsch in July 1976...that stuff was likely bought in 1977 sometime  All the glue in between the plys in it was hard as hell urea-formaldeyde glue...and the plys themselves were all ARCTIC birch...very dense heavy stuff to begin with, and "it didn't want to look pretty"!  It was also in various sheet sizes!  So we used it where it worked best with the least wear-and-tear on edged tools!  It was tried on the drop-in fronts (motor-board panels) for Heresys, but the staples folded when trying to install them, and router bits just got so hot, so fast, that the cutting edges exploded out of them in tiny pieces!! Trust me, I KNOW!!...and I still have the tiny scars on my neck and arms to prove it!!.  So use of  the thicker Baltic birch was NOT for anything that required routing out holes!  MOST of it ended up eventually being used for crossover network boards. the thinner stuff, around 1/2" thick was used in K-horn horn bass bin interior panel assemblies and for the side panels of the horn body...stuff that  would have screws securing it instead of other fastener types!  Drilling holes for screws was no issue when with using it!  Staples and finish nails??...forget it!...didn't happen because they folded or bent trying to get thru it!  That huge purchase was BELIEVED to be a great idea when they made it at a great discount, but none of the decision-makers on the deal knew chit about trying to use it for building our speakers!!…. and didn't bother asking us!...AS USUAL!!  The Baltic birch panels we got which were approximately 1/2" thick...had 9 plys.  The Baltic birch we got that was approximately 3/4" thick had 17 plys,  It was marine-grade Baltic birch!  And it was NOT pretty!  So it was never used for speaker cabinet  main box panels. It would have made great boats though!  Down at my father's place is something I used scraps of it to build back around 1980! It was a canoe/kayak rack designed to fit inside of my 1980 Dodge Ram 50 pick-up truck bed edges!  It has ALWAYS been out in the weather!  No paint of anything else to protect the wood!  I replaced that pickup in 1988.  That rack has been siting there on sawhorses out in the weather ever since then!...there is almost no sign of ANY ply separations except here and there on the very edges, and it is more due to erosion than to separation from what I can tell!  I have replaced the saw horses it sits on at least a dozen times!...they were made of pressure treated wood and have consistently rotted away and been eaten up by insects!, where nothing like that has happened to the Baltic birch!!  Go figure!  That is totally amazing to me!

 

The Birch-cabinet-grade 3/4" plywood used was a custom lay from Georgia Pacific..."void-free"...and whenever GP decided it was to THEIR advantage, they would send some with lots of voids so that they could jack-up the price on us for the next shipment when management raised hell about "all of the voids in the plywood coming-in lately"!  It had FIVE-equal-thickness interior plys, which were generally from a variety of fine-grained/tight-grained hardwoods and its outer plys were top high quality birch veneers which generally ran  AT or ever-so-slightly UNDER 1/16th " thick...we had to sand the raw speakers before they left the factory/before finish was applied , and we had to be able to ensure NOT sanding thru the outer birch veneers , or so close to the underlying ply's grain that it would show thru the outer birch veneer ply when finishes were applied! OUR working tolerances for speaker parts was NOT TO EXCEED 1/64th" !  This was to eliminate construction issues! (ESPECIALLY IN THE FOLDED BASS HORNS!!)  So, the plywood actually had SEVEN TOTAL PLYS! and HAD to measure AT 3/4" in thickness when we received it...no more, no less!  TRUST ME, I KNOW!!  I'm pretty sure there was no evergreens wood involved in the interior plys, because I would have smelled it when cutting or routing it!!...this includes fir!  I'm from a multi-generational timber family...timberland sawmills, etc!   We can generally ID the wood from the smell when cutting it!...or burning it...without seeing the leaves or paying attention to the bark on the trees!  I got much more expansive in my being able to do this due to working with exotic woods over the years, too!  "What kind of wood it this? All the boards are almost black with crap on them!!"  Take a saw and cut into it a little and let me smell! it's like a scratch and sniff thing! Too easy after you were forced to do it for ten years!  That's what happens when you are out of something you NEED, but there are SIX 53' trailers outside full of exotic wood boards that were in a warehouse fire heavily-discounted salvage package, and are all mixed-up in each trailer!!  LOL!  Just had to love the pattern shop in the foundry!!  Always out of what we needed most for rigging patterns!!  LOL!  Had to find something else which would work, instead!...at least for awhile, anyway!!

 

All of THAT BEING SAID there were a handful of times while  I worked there where we had not yet received a shipment of from GP...so a local purchase of a few maybe two or three bundles of 3/4" cabinet-grade birch plywood was made to "tide us over" until the GP shipment arrived,  because we were almost completely out of it!  We called that our "emergency stash"...and as soon as the GP shipment arrived, we would stop using the local-purchase stuff and let it sit until it was needed again!  We only bought MORE of it when we were already out of the GP stuff and ALSO almost out of the emergency stash itself...just to keep  production going!...until the GP shipments finally arrived!  Our biggest problem was limited storage capacity in the cabinet shop for bundles of plywood...this was severely reduced even more when they bought those truckloads of Baltic birch!...most of which didn't get used up for years!

 

The later move to what much of the "cabinet-grade" birch plywood ended up becoming OUTSIDE of Klipsch was already being produced in limited amounts...I have no evidence Klipsch EVER USED THAT STUFF, though!  In order to allow for thinner outside veneer, the move was heading towards something like thin cardboard/Masonite directly under the outermost veneer.  That way, the outer veneer could be thinner and still could be sanded a decent amount WITHOUT becoming so thin that you could EASILY see its immediate substrate "grain:"...because its immediate substrate DID NOT HAVE ANY GRAIN!!  I worked with that stuff in the early 1990's for a while!,  I was NOT impressed!

 

ONE MORE CAVEAT:  I have no idea what Klipsch might have done in TRYING OUT other plywood types after I left...but I would imagine they would have sold the speakers from those attempts...even though they may not have decided to use that particular plywood in regular production!  WASTE WAS FROWNED UPON!

 

For the fine-wood-veered panels such as black walnut and all the rest of the finely veneered panels...what was used was Georgia-Pacific (generally!) custom lay of "void-free" Poplar lumber-core plywood.  This consisted of edge-glued poplar lumber boards which seldom were more than 1.5 inches wide.  On the inside "side" of the lumber-core, were TWO veneer plys of top grade birch! On the outside "side were two  more veneers, one of birch adjacent to the poplar lumber core, and one of whatever the fine veneer was....oak, walnut, rosewood, ebony...whatever! The same rules for outer veneer thickness and total panel thickness applied!  These panels were custom veneered by GP...in panels that were specifically sized for particular speaker designs.  Let's take Heresys or Cornwalls for instance:  for a pair of Cormwalls there were four panels to a pair.  they ARRIVED already edge-banded in veneer, just about a half inch too wide.  So let's take a side panel sheet.  The saw would be set for the over-all width of the SPEAKER panel, then the wood panel it was cut from would be ripped TO WIDTH from the "double-wide" panel we received....then the remaining piece would be put edge-veneer to he saw fence and it too would be ripped to its needed width...they would be laid face to face...you did this for each of the four doublewide panels...when you were done you had eight panels for a matched pair...then you mitered one end on all of them using a sled, then you set the fence at the end of the SLED and mitered the other end...for all panels according to required length of panel.this left a thin piece of scrap...NOW you had all eight panels of the matched pair ready for assembly!  Every panel received was already palletized for the individual pairs!  If something got screwed up, then you would end up with one single, and one to be painted black or white(best case scenario!).  This included Heresys, Cornwalls, Belles and K-horns...involving their fine-veneered panels! the panels for belles had no miters AT THE ENDS...they were just ripped to width!  I'm not gonna describe about all the K-horn panels...takes too damned long to do so!

 

When Klipsch moved from lumbercore to MDF, .there was "NO IN-BETWEEN involved" 

 

I left Klipsch in September 1983, we had just put the KG2 into production, the other speakers were K-horns, Belles, LaScalas, Cornwalls, and Heresys and the industrial line models.!  Others in the KG series were in the works and being readied for production over the next couple of years...prototypes had been approved, but they were not in production, yet!  Veneered MDF was being heavily considered for future speaker production!...the front-loaded drivers for what became called the Heresy II was already in the works and I had been involved in making the parts and assembling some of the prototype cabinets!  The transition period before the Heresy II was actually produced AS the Heresy II was a few years long...but the prototypes were already showung its new CABINET construction method(s).

 

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“There are major differences between Baltic birch and birch. Baltic birch has about twice as many plys, does not use any filler wood, and has thicker outer layers. Typical birch plywood will have 5 to 7 plys for a 3/4-inch thick board, whereas Baltic birch will have about twice that amount.”

 

https://weekendbuilds.com/what-is-baltic-birch-plywood/#Baltic_Birch_vs_Birch_Whats_the_Difference

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16 minutes ago, Travis In Austin said:

the thinner stuff, around 1/2" thick was used in K-horn horn bass bin interior panel assemblies and for the side panels of the horn body...stuff that  would have screws securing it instead of other fastener types!  Drilling holes for screws was no issue when with using it!  Staples and finish nails??...forget it!...didn't happen because they folded or bent trying to get thru it!  That huge purchase was BELIEVED to be a great idea when they made it at a great discount, but none of the decision-makers on the deal knew chit about trying to use it for building our speakers!!…. and didn't bother asking us!...AS USUAL!!  The Baltic birch panels we got which were approximately 1/2" thick...had 9 plys.

This is the exact stuff used in my 1977 Khorns, ordered from my dealer in September and delivered in Mid October that year. I sold them to a family friend years ago. I was really impressed with the 9 layers I could see in all parts from the rear. He still has them and I have an option to buy them back for the same fair used price I charged him. I keep bugging him annually to buy them back, but he says the only I will get them will be in his will! Not likely since he's a bit younger than I am. LOL.

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21 minutes ago, Crankysoldermeister said:

“There are major differences between Baltic birch and birch. Baltic birch has about twice as many plys, does not use any filler wood, and has thicker outer layers. Typical birch plywood will have 5 to 7 plys for a 3/4-inch thick board, whereas Baltic birch will have about twice that amount.”

 

https://weekendbuilds.com/what-is-baltic-birch-plywood/#Baltic_Birch_vs_Birch_Whats_the_Difference

So is birch ply, made in the USA, that has 13 plys, etc. labeled "Baltic Birch"

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6 hours ago, Travis In Austin said:

So is birch ply, made in the USA, that has 13 plys, etc. labeled "Baltic Birch"

I have never seen that material though I have seen some chinese fake Baltic Birch which is truly odious to work with and a true third rate imitation of the real thing. The only Baltic Birch I have ever purchased came from reputable large plywood suppliers around Nashville and it was imported from the Baltic region made from Baltic Birch trees and had the exterior grade adhesive used and is basically uniform in appearance and void free. I have never been offered Baltic Birch that was not exactly that from my two vendors. I would say that if it is labeled Baltic Birch it must be made in the Baltic area with Baltic Birch trees and the correct glue. Anything else is Birch plywood irregardless of ply count and uniformity. BB is different then any other plywood I have used from the weight to how it cuts and how it holds up under stress and exposure to water. I have asked my two vendors if there is anything else like it and they say no. If they could find it and buy it they would have done so.

 

Regarding the quote from @HDBRbuilder. Tooling has advanced a LONG way since he retired. I figure back then they were using straight flute soldered carbide router bits which are a poor substitute for the current helical solid carbide end mills in use. Also with the advent of CNC routers you can run the right rpm's to keep from getting to hot and still cut just fine and fast for production. 

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7 hours ago, Travis In Austin said:

For example, what is Chinese Baltic Birch? Obviously it is Birch Ply, made in a way that is supposed to be similar to Baltic Birch?

I needed to add something here. I had one sheet of this material. The outer layer was thin and splintered with terrible pullouts no matter what type of cutter or saw blade I used. You could not sand this much at all without going right through the outer layer. It has some sort of resin/epoxy brown crap to fill voids and not football patches like BB. It weighs FAR less per cubic inch volume. I can put a piece of BB out there in my driveway under my trailer tongue jack and a year later it is still intact and though the outside is a bit etched it did not rot nor de-laminate. A piece of that chinese junk just sitting outside will fall apart in no time with the weather.  There are places where the ply layers meet that actually have folded sections and then mashed to thickness. I have never seen anything but complete uniformity with the plys in BB.  A local lumber yard had this and it looked good so I tried it one day. They were clueless about what BB really was and just accepted the label the Chinese put on their crap. I brought them a piece of real BB and their fake stuff to show them why I would NEVER be buying that garbage again. 

 

  I have no idea what the chinese stuff is made from as there are such huge differences in the end result from their plywood vs BB plywood.

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9 hours ago, Travis In Austin said:

So I'm trying to clarify when you use the term "Baltic Birch" what are you referring to?

 

Though it may no longer be true, for a long time one indicator of true Baltic Birch (from the Baltic region) was that it was only available in 5'x5' (1525 mm) sheets.

 

https://www.woodworkerssource.com/blog/woodworking-101/tips-tricks/your-ultimate-guide-to-baltic-birch-plywood-why-its-better-when-to-use-it/

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57 minutes ago, Edgar said:

 

Though it may no longer be true, for a long time one indicator of true Baltic Birch (from the Baltic region) was that it was only available in 5'x5' (1525 mm) sheets.

 

https://www.woodworkerssource.com/blog/woodworking-101/tips-tricks/your-ultimate-guide-to-baltic-birch-plywood-why-its-better-when-to-use-it/

I buy 4' x 8' sheets now which are just as common here and less waste. But yes 5' x 5' was all I knew about and asked for until I was out in the ware house one day and saw a stack of 4' x 8'.

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  • 4 months later...

I can't tell if I posted in this thread, or not.  It's grown too long.  I was both surprised and disappointed at the lean/bright sound of my new H IVs when I got them.  Not at all what I remembered from hearing them in Hope.  So I set about "exercising" the woofers with Dub-step while the Loudness was on and the bass at max for this old receiver.  That way I could pump the woofers and not be annoyed with the door shut.  At 48 hours, there was a marked difference (more bass,more natural sound).  After 4 days, they didn't seem to change much.  Now I don't use a subwoofer with them at all.  Just looked.  It's unplugged.

 

I must admit to their break-in and with chagrin that I have stated many times break-in was a myth.  I don't remember my old Marantz and Boston A150 speakers changing that way.  That was so long ago, maybe they were floor demos. 

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On 5/31/2022 at 10:59 PM, Dave A said:

I have looked for this but have not found any locally. I hope to try this out some day and it appears to be the only possible alternative to BB quality wise.

Dave,

Appleply is made by States Industries in Oregon.  Their website has a locator for their products. The closest place to you is:

Wurth Wood Group

(205) 925-7601
1640 Mims Ave SW Birmingham, AL 35211 (131 mi)

 

I was going to check a cabinet maker her in Chattanooga to see if they use it and see if I could piggyback a purchase when they buy materials (if they use  Appleply at all).

If you make it to a Dick's Sporting Goods store, you will see what is probably Appleply for all their display shelving. It looks really nice in person. I've got a pic I put in.

 

Resized_20220720_165917.jpeg

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3 hours ago, Marvel said:

Dave,

Appleply is made by States Industries in Oregon.  Their website has a locator for their products. The closest place to you is:

Wurth Wood Group

(205) 925-7601
1640 Mims Ave SW Birmingham, AL 35211 (131 mi)

 

I was going to check a cabinet maker her in Chattanooga to see if they use it and see if I could piggyback a purchase when they buy materials (if they use  Appleply at all).

If you make it to a Dick's Sporting Goods store, you will see what is probably Appleply for all their display shelving. It looks really nice in person. I've got a pic I put in.

 

Resized_20220720_165917.jpeg

Thanks for the tip and I will be looking into that.

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