Flevoman Posted May 18, 2022 Share Posted May 18, 2022 A question about the sound differences between the EL34, 300B and the KT150. My set consists of the CW4 and a Dynaco ST70 EL34 tube amplifier. A nice amplifier but it does offer room for improvement. What I would like to improve in the sound is a bit more dynamics/vibrancy, more detail, a bit fresher sound (slightly less hummmm), a bit tighter and more punchy bass, the large midrange of the EL34, and a great live feel. I'll probably have a second listening demo at the hi-fi shop next week and hope to come up with a choice regarding a new amplifier. In the first listening demo I listened to a number of different nice amps equipped with the 300b tube and an amp with the KT150 tube. The problem is that I have 0 experience with amplifiers. I only know my current Dynaco ST70. Unfortunately, trying the amplifiers at home is not an option so I have to hear during the demo which amplifier suits me the best. And frankly, I have a lot of trouble with this due to lack of experience and also the pressure to make the right choice. Are there tube listeners who know these three tubes well, and can tell me what difference between these tubes I should hear in theory? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry4841 Posted May 18, 2022 Share Posted May 18, 2022 Probably best moved to the Tube section for better response. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flevoman Posted May 18, 2022 Author Share Posted May 18, 2022 Perhaps your right. Sorry for posting in the wrong section. Maybe a moderator can move this topic to the correct one? Thanks in advance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted May 18, 2022 Share Posted May 18, 2022 you want more punch or power? a kt150 or a 300b will get you there... If you want more beauty, liquidity and dimension, look to a 2a3 or 45 topology. I think the 34 is great in my system, it's balanced and no part of the system seems to overwhelm any other even though I can run just about any EL, 6l6 or KT octal. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry4841 Posted May 18, 2022 Share Posted May 18, 2022 My thoughts as well. Right now I am using some of the NOS Russian 6L6's in my EL-34 SET. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parlophone1 Posted May 18, 2022 Share Posted May 18, 2022 Schu says well. My KT88 sound similar to some solid state amps. Once I was comparing it with Hafler P3000 trans nova plus some tube preamp. This combo gave very similar sound to my KT88. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flevoman Posted May 18, 2022 Author Share Posted May 18, 2022 3 hours ago, Schu said: you want more punch or power? a kt150 or a 300b will get you there... If you want more beauty, liquidity and dimension, look to a 2a3 or 45 topology. I think the 34 is great in my system, it's balanced and no part of the system seems to overwhelm any other even though I can run just about any EL, 6l6 or KT octal. I had a first demo at the hifi dealer And I've heard some amps. But I find it extremely difficult to hear the differences properly and doubt myself whether I hear it correctly. I didn't heard the punch in the 300b tubes to be honest.. It was very detailed, Warm and easy listening. The KT150 seemed a bit brighter, more punch and dynamics. I had the feeling I liked the kt150 the best. But I doubt very much whether I hear these differences correctly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KT88 Posted May 18, 2022 Share Posted May 18, 2022 50 minutes ago, Flevoman said: I had a first demo at the hifi dealer And I've heard some amps. But I find it extremely difficult to hear the differences properly and doubt myself whether I hear it correctly. I didn't heard the punch in the 300b tubes to be honest.. It was very detailed, Warm and easy listening. The KT150 seemed a bit brighter, more punch and dynamics. I had the feeling I liked the kt150 the best. But I doubt very much whether I hear these differences correctly. Before I can give my two cent to your topic…I do not know the Dynaco ST 70. I have seen pics in the web of the newer version and I see two pots for the left and right channel. How do you use your ST70? Do you use a pre amp beforehand or do you go straight from your source (CD player, streamer or whatsever? Are the pots of the ST 70 meant to be just a gain adjustment or does this amp has a genuine integrated pre section? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted May 18, 2022 Share Posted May 18, 2022 flevOflev... there are a lot of variables including room, tube manufacturer, circuit... etc. only you are going to be able to decide whether or not something is 'Correct'. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flevoman Posted May 19, 2022 Author Share Posted May 19, 2022 9 hours ago, KT88 said: Before I can give my two cent to your topic…I do not know the Dynaco ST 70. I have seen pics in the web of the newer version and I see two pots for the left and right channel. How do you use your ST70? Do you use a pre amp beforehand or do you go straight from your source (CD player, streamer or whatsever? Are the pots of the ST 70 meant to be just a gain adjustment or does this amp has a genuine integrated pre section? I use a preamp indead. The NAD 1000s.. Although I bypass this, I have this in use for possible tone control when needed. And the pots are for manual gain adjustment. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flevoman Posted May 19, 2022 Author Share Posted May 19, 2022 5 hours ago, Schu said: flevOflev... there are a lot of variables including room, tube manufacturer, circuit... etc. only you are going to be able to decide whether or not something is 'Correct'. I know I am the only one to decide. I also don't ask which tube I should Choose. The reason I'd like to know how each tube sounds and how they differ from each other is to be a little more confident with the following listening demo. I can then focus better on the possible differences, and when in doubt between amplifiers, I can better convince myself, on the basis of the knowledge, that what I think I am hearing is correct or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KT88 Posted May 19, 2022 Share Posted May 19, 2022 8 hours ago, Flevoman said: I use a preamp indead. The Although I bypass this, I have this in use for possible tone control when needed. And the pots are for manual gain adjustment. Thanks for the info, Flevoman. I wanted to make the point that in my experience a pre amp is an indispensable requirement. There are many threads about this here in the forum and elsewhere and I am of the opinion that a power amp never sounds good when it is driven directly from a source. I don't want to hijack the thread but this is an important point because it has a lot to do with your decision. I don't want to discuss whether one needs a pre amp but I say yes and absolutely. I go one step further, the choice of pre amp is ultimately the main determinant of the tonal character of the whole system. It should not be skimped on. That doesn't mean that it has to be extraordinarily expensive, but it must be considered appropriately in its quality...in coordination with the device class of the power amplifier. First of all it should fit well "electrically". For example, I consider my Mcintosh C22CE to be one of the best sounding pre amps I know. It was intended by the factory to be used with any MC275 (Mk4 in my case). It's a very good electrical match. This is especially true for the interaction of the output impedance of the pre and the input impedance of the power amp. Although the C22CE sounds so fantastic, it is not usable with my Mcintosh MC2102. This power amp has an input impedance of "only" 20K Ohm....as many modern power amps have. Here the C22CE sound thin and unweighted, so we are talking about a fundamentally electrically "wrong" sound, we are not talking about sound preferences. And that is a very important difference. I see that your NAD pre amp has an output impedance of 220 Ω. This is very good and should be compatible with many power amps. But if you want a sound improvement for your system, then the question of which power tubes sound which way would only be secondary for me. Certainly it makes a difference, but other issues are more important in my opinion. I bet that a really good pre amp (if it is electrically suitable re it´s output impedance) influences the sound more than the choice of another tube power amp. In the end, you have completely different power amps, but they all sound (more or less) the same in the way that they are tinted and fed by the sound of the NAD pre amp (or any other pre amp...) in a pleasing or less pleasing way. I'm not saying the NAD isn't good, but whether it's the best choice to compete with such precious tubes and devices like 300B, 45, KT150 etc. I would doubt it. The question is whether you buy a really good (tube) pre amp first or whether you buy a pre amp together with the power amp of your choice . Personally, I would buy an electrically compatible (with many power amps) good pre amp first. I totally agree that it should have a tone control. You will be surprised what your Dynaco ST70 power amp can do. Or a good integrated tube amp with a real built-in preamp...maybe even hybrid. For example, Mcintosh (among other manufacturers) knows how important the fingerprint of the pre amp is. That's why they have integrated amps these days where they reverse the philosophy and the pre amp section is tube but the power amp is sand. Here is one model which even has a good analogue tone control. And you would be sure not to make any mistakes in the composition when everything comes from a single source. https://www.mcintoshlabs.com/products/integrated-amplifiers/MA352 This is really only meant to be an example, I am not married to Mcintosh. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flevoman Posted May 19, 2022 Author Share Posted May 19, 2022 That's a long and informative answer. Thank you very much for this. I've read it with interest, and although this is quite technical for me, a side I really know nothing about, I found it very interesting to read it. However, I will only use the preamp with this amplifier, the Dynaco. The new amplifier has a built-in preamplifier. I will keep the NAD and Dynaco. First, because I get too little in return. But also because I like being able to make changes in my setup. But for upcoming amp I will never use the NAD. Still an interesting comment 👍🏻 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KT88 Posted May 19, 2022 Share Posted May 19, 2022 So do you know just know which integrated it will be? And even if not it is a very good and safe decision to go the way of an integrated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry4841 Posted May 19, 2022 Share Posted May 19, 2022 I am at the opposite of KT88 when it comes to tone controls. Have not had or used in a decade or more. It takes a lot of effort adjusting your speakers to your room but when done correctly tone controls are just another form of signal manipulation. More components in the audio signal path. It does take a lot of effort, time and expense to conform your room to your speakers. I am the camp of less is better. I have multiple amplifiers and preamps. None with tone controls. The one I use the most is a simple buffer with no amplification. The Nelson Pass B1v2. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KT88 Posted May 19, 2022 Share Posted May 19, 2022 29 minutes ago, henry4841 said: I am at the opposite of KT88 when it comes to tone controls. Have not had or used in a decade or more. It takes a lot of effort adjusting your speakers to your room but when done correctly tone controls are just another form of signal manipulation. More components in the audio signal path. It does take a lot of effort, time and expense to conform your room to your speakers. I am the camp of less is better. I have multiple amplifiers and preamps. None with tone controls. The one I use the most is a simple buffer with no amplification. The Nelson Pass B1v2. You can perfectly match your speakers to your room. But what if a very beautiful musical recording sounds technically thin and tinny? For me it's not about sound controls to hide a wrong speaker positioning but that I want to compensate for the shortcomings of some recordings. Some pre amps are also designed so that the tone controls are not in the signal path when they are set to zero, for example, the Mcintosh C22CE. With other pre amps this is not the case e.g. with my Quad 34, but it doesn't bother me because I like its sound. It's also a very subjective thing. In a British forum, the Quad 34 was discussed. A retired sound engineer who worked at Abbey Road Studios for 30 years loves his Quad 34 because he says that the highest resolution can sometimes be very tiring. He prefers (as do I) a pleasing sound. This is far from dull and cloudy sounding. BTW The 34's tone control is as simple as it is ingenious for balancing recordings. Have a look at the Tilt control and the corresponding graph. https://www.kenrockwell.com/audio/quad/34-preamplifier.htm#tone 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcbiz Posted May 19, 2022 Share Posted May 19, 2022 On 5/18/2022 at 1:50 PM, Flevoman said: I had a first demo at the hifi dealer And I've heard some amps. But I find it extremely difficult to hear the differences properly and doubt myself whether I hear it correctly. I didn't heard the punch in the 300b tubes to be honest.. It was very detailed, Warm and easy listening. The KT150 seemed a bit brighter, more punch and dynamics. I had the feeling I liked the kt150 the best. But I doubt very much whether I hear these differences correctly. If you heard that, then your assessment is 100% correct. My first and current tube amp is the MP-301 Mark III. It had a great sound with 6L6 and EL34 tubes. However, it really came to life with KT150s. Your observations of KT150s are pretty much the same as mine. I'm getting Quicksilver mono blocks to better accommodate that KT150 sound. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flevoman Posted May 20, 2022 Author Share Posted May 20, 2022 If I may comment regarding the preamp. I had recently shared the same opinion as @henry4841. Listen to the music as it is presented and keep the signal as pure as possible. I also once started a topic here about why I would use a preamp at all if I can also use the volume control of my media streamer to keep my audio signal pure as possible. However, when testing what suited me better, with or without a preamp, I chose with a preamp. Although I could not clearly name what difference I heard which made me more comfortable with the preamp. At that time I had a different preamplifier by the way, the Perraux SA2 without any tone control. In this periode i got a lot of help from @EpicKlipschFan and I adopted his vision of using tone control when needed, and frankly I liked it. Some songs can have benefited from a little more bass for example, due to a somewhat poorer recording. So now I have the NAD1000s. Most of the time I by pass the tone controle.. But with some songs, or when I'm in the mood for some more bass, then i increase the bass with +1 or +2 These are the Amps I have listened with the demo. Probable it will be one of the 2 Melody's https://www.line-magnetic.eu/en/products-line-magnetic-en/integrated-tube-amplifier-line-magnetic-en/lm-845-premium-amplificateur-intégré-single-ended-845-2x30w-detail https://melodyhifi.eu/product/melody-dpm80/ https://melodyhifi.eu/product/melody-an300b-max/ https://stereo-magazine.com/article/cayin-introduces-new-tube-amplifier-cs-805a (This amplifier was the most striking in terms of sound difference , and with the first impression I liked this a lot. A lot of dynamics, very clear and clean sound, but i heard a lot of sharp edges on some songs. ) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flevoman Posted May 20, 2022 Author Share Posted May 20, 2022 8 hours ago, pcbiz said: If you heard that, then your assessment is 100% correct. My first and current tube amp is the MP-301 Mark III. It had a great sound with 6L6 and EL34 tubes. However, it really came to life with KT150s. Your observations of KT150s are pretty much the same as mine. I'm getting Quicksilver mono blocks to better accommodate that KT150 sound. Thank you for this information. Have you also compared the kt150 with the 300b perhaps? Is there a point where the EL34 outperforms the KT150 in your experience? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KT88 Posted May 20, 2022 Share Posted May 20, 2022 4 hours ago, Flevoman said: I also once started a topic here about why I would use a preamp at all if I can also use the volume control of my media streamer to keep my audio signal pure as possible. However, when testing what suited me better, with or without a preamp, I chose with a preamp. Although I could not clearly name what difference I heard which made me more comfortable with the preamp. Here we share the same listening impression. And how you describe the difference I find very autehtic. It's not the instantaneous big black/white contrast. It's subtle but on long term listening a clear emotional difference. Without pre amp I might be initially delighted by some more resolution, but it happens that the disadvantages soon come to the fore. The timbres are not really right, e.g. a grand piano in the range from C2 to C4 sounds somehow more potted. It's as if the single note has less guidance authority and control. And in terms of the whole piece of music, there is often a lack of tension in the rhythmic timing, plus less control over what is happening in the musical structure and somehow "no meat". All these impressions turned into positive, that's what the pre amp does for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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