solid state is more accurate?

[Idontknow]

Everywhere I read, most state that tubes are colored and solid state are more accurate. Perhaps on paper with measurements and perhaps in recording studios, yet when I play jazz through solid state it bores me to death. There is little no no spatial separation around instruments with the single exception of First Watt solid state amps as far as I've heard so far. Those are entirely unique. To my ears, solid state is like a veil is in front of the instruments. That doesn't sound accurate to me. If anything solid state sounds less accurate for musical jazz reproduction. I believe it's true that solid state is technically more accurate but not when listening to it. My solid state friends argue with me all the time but what they forget all too often is the type of music being played and at what volume. It makes a huge difference. 

[henry4841]

Tubes still rule when it comes to sound. Nelson uses SS output devices that have curves like tubes. Not absolutely true but in general terms he tries to get the tube sound in a SS component. More reliability for the SS crowd. I once asked him why he did not design a tube amplifier. His response was he has designed and he does have tube amplifiers. It's just that SS is the field he has chosen as a profession. Been really successful at it as well. 

[geezin']

Very subjective. As well as many variables like the big one...speakers.

[Idontknow]

Hi Geezin I agree it’s all subjective, but too many listeners make too many mistakes regarding the context of their reasons for choosing SS. For example one of my friends argues tubes measure with more distortion, yet that’s one of the reasons tubes sound good. My other friend argues bass is better in SS. Yea, but at what volume levels is the user listening at? All these things matter, not to mention many others. If I was listening to inferior recordings which is often the case with many classic rock bands like Journey an Styx for example, I’d just use SS and be done. Tube aren’t doing anything to bring out anything that’s special because it doesn’t exist in the recordings to begin with. Many users of SS don’t explain or realize that. This week I’ll be comparing the Decware Zen, Primaluna EVO 400 and First Watt Sit3 on youtube. I’ll post my finding here when the video is released. 

[Islander]

Some people don’t like to admit it, but every amplifier has its own signature sound/flavour.  Ideally, there would be just one accurate sound, and maybe someday we’ll get there, but we’re not there yet.  Part of the problem is that some amplifiers and other components belie their so-so test results because they sound really good, or even really really good to listen to, and some people will sometimes pay a lot for gear that has a very seductive sound.  I didn’t say “that seductive sound”, because there isn’t only one.  Among the really expensive amplifiers, the reviews sometimes read like reviews of great wines, with the descriptions of their sounds moving further and further from “lab standard” to more like “it’s got that special something that is very hard to precisely describe”, followed by descriptions that are very hard to precisely understand, more lyrical than precise.

 

Then there’s PRaT, a quality that was often found in English magazine reviews (or maybe still is).  PRaT, or “Pace, Rhythm, and Timing”, means that the sound better conveyed a toe-tapping feel better than other amplifiers that just play the music, in a possibly more accurate manner, but accurate to the point of being boring.  This can also apply to the sound of speakers, but I’ll stay on topic, so let’s leave speakers for another discussion.

 

One could say that the sound of stereos falls in a continuum, going from low end junk, to better junk, to not bad junk but kind of charming, to good but not charming, good but charming, really good (getting expensive now), really good and charming (getting really expensive now), and finally “they’re so expensive they’ve got to be great, but you have to choose the precise flavour you like, because there’s more than one.”  Confusing?  Yes!

 

Perhaps the easiest way to resolve this is to remind ourselves that these are entertainment machines, so if they entertain us, they’ve done their jobs, and leave it at that.  At any given price point, the amplifier that sounds more realistic (and entertaining) of the two is the better one.  Once they (or you) reach a certain threshold, good sound is assured, so you pick the sound that works for you, maybe “the sound that works for you with the music that you like”.  Then there’s “sounds good to you with any kind of music”, which costs more, and may not be essential.  It’s your money and your choice.  While there are absolutes, they’re not everything, or these discussions would be very short.

[henry4841]

Nelson said it best. "For years I designed amplifiers for low distortions number but now I design amplifiers that sound good to me and hope others like them as much to buy them." Or something to that effect. 

[CWelsh]

I have to start by saying I haven't listened to a lot of tube components, so I can't really express any strong opinion based on my vast experience. That said, I can enjoy listening to music on my Amazon Echo or JBL Charge 4, but my enjoyment goes to a completely different level when that sense of space is there...what I think of as soundstage. To me, that is what separates great from good. And, I do feel like I've heard this from a number of SS components, but maybe it isn't as good as I think.

 

How much difference does source material make? In my experience, some recordings seem much more spatial than others. Would that difference disappear or be reduced with tube equipment? I would appreciate suggestions of recordings I can try with my own SS based system.

 

 

[henry4841]

My experience is tube gear will more than likely expand the soundstage. I say more than likely being that the difference in quality SS vs tubes gear has narrowed. In general though tube gear has more reach out and touch a singer experience. For those wanting to experience the tube sound get a good quality tube preamplifier with your power amplifier and you can then judge for yourself. Depending on music and mood I swap out tube pre with SS pre with my one of my SS amplifiers.  

[CWelsh]

4 hours ago, henry4841 said:

My experience is tube gear will more than likely expand the soundstage. I say more than likely being that the difference in quality SS vs tubes gear has narrowed. In general though tube gear has more reach out and touch a singer experience. For those wanting to experience the tube sound get a good quality tube preamplifier with your power amplifier and you can then judge for yourself. Depending on music and mood I swap out tube pre with SS pre with my one of my SS amplifiers.  

Are you talking about a tube preamp with a SS amp?

[henry4841]

6 hours ago, CWelsh said:

Are you talking about a tube preamp with a SS amp?

Yes. You will get a taste of what tubes bring to the table. I switch back and forth between tube with SS amp and SS with SS amp for a different sound. Both sound really good but different. 

[jjptkd]

6 hours ago, CWelsh said:

Are you talking about a tube preamp with a SS amp?

 

 That was very common on the now defunct Carveraudio forum where many members ran low sensitivity very power hungry ribbon speakers when low powered tube amps just weren't possible. 

[henry4841]

Nelson Pass' Nutube preamplifier project just recently became available as a full kit on diyaudio.com store for diy'ers. It is a true triode tube and designed just for this purpose, use with SS amplifiers. Not a hard project for one that can follow directions and solder. A quality unit for $300 from the Master. 

 

https://firstwatt.com/pdf/art_diy_nutube_preamp.pdf

[CWelsh]

42 minutes ago, henry4841 said:

Nelson Pass' Nutube preamplifier project just recently became available as a full kit on diyaudio.com store for diy'ers. It is a true triode tube and designed just for this purpose, use with SS amplifiers. Not a hard project for one that can follow directions and solder. A quality unit for $300 from the Master. 

 

https://firstwatt.com/pdf/art_diy_nutube_preamp.pdf

We've discussed this one. I think this will be my next DIY project, but will need to wait for a while until the wife isn't paying attention. 😉

[henry4841]

You will be rewarded with a quality piece. Price some of Passlabs preamplfiiers and you will see what a deal this is. 

 

https://renohifi.com/PassInStock.htm

 

For SS diy'ers Wayne Colburn, the designer of Passlab's preamplifiers designed a SS preamplifier for diy'ers that is a steal for the price to build. WAYNE'S BURNING AMP 2018 LINESTAGE at the diyaudio store. Fantastic sounding SS preamplifier at a fraction of the cost of the ones Wayne designs for Passlabs. It uses a J-fets for the input and the other transistors used are the KSC 1845 and KSA 992 which are excellent audio transistors commonly used for replacement transistors for old audio gear when the original transistors are obsolete. I have a couple hundred of each. 

[jjptkd]

22 hours ago, henry4841 said:

Nelson Pass' Nutube preamplifier project just recently became available as a full kit on diyaudio.com store for diy'ers. It is a true triode tube and designed just for this purpose, use with SS amplifiers. Not a hard project for one that can follow directions and solder. A quality unit for $300 from the Master. 

 

https://firstwatt.com/pdf/art_diy_nutube_preamp.pdf

 

 "With a little effort and good luck it will sound great.

 

Your results may vary, but remember that we are here to have some fun - It's entertainment, not dialysis."

 

(c) 2019 Nelson Pass

[Daveteauk]

On 5/21/2022 at 2:44 AM, Idontknow said:

Everywhere I read, most state that tubes are colored and solid state are more accurate. Perhaps on paper with measurements and perhaps in recording studios, yet when I play jazz through solid state it bores me to death. There is little no no spatial separation around instruments with the single exception of First Watt solid state amps as far as I've heard so far. Those are entirely unique. To my ears, solid state is like a veil is in front of the instruments. That doesn't sound accurate to me. If anything solid state sounds less accurate for musical jazz reproduction. I believe it's true that solid state is technically more accurate but not when listening to it. My solid state friends argue with me all the time but what they forget all too often is the type of music being played and at what volume. It makes a huge difference. 

Whether folks on here like it or not, it's a fact that tubes ARE more coloured and DO produce more distortion - it's not an opinion, it's a fact. Whether you like the sound of tubes is another matter, I've been there; it totally depends on your speakers. Also, with using tubes there are so so many variables. Tubies go on and on about 'tube rolling'! WtF is that about. If SS owners could as easily change their output devices, there'd be another forum on that! Like a stylus, a tube wears out, and wears so slowly that you don't notice it until it fails or you replace with a new(er) one. I don't like variables or unknowns in equipment, so I now stay with SS. I acknowledge that tube amps do have something, and when I say that to peole they say yes, distortion, which is correct, but with the right speaker, they can sound,,,, I resist saying better, but, different.

I have a SS amp driving my Magnepan (yes, not Klipsch) 1.7i's, and Jazz sounds wonderful, in the room real, and several of my Jazz musician friends also think so too.

Amps and speakers are a pairing, and should be thought of as such, and one is chosen with the other in mind.

[henry4841]

Not so sure about more distortion. There are many tube amplifiers that have really good numbers, if a number is what one is chasing. Horns work well with tubes and the very low power they need means a well designed tube amplifier is going to have a very low distortion number. Below what really matters. For instance does a .0005 number sound better than .05. Not really. Then there is the kind of distortion. Most tube amplifiers low distortion number is going to be predominantly 2nd and 3rd harmonic which can sound pleasing to many whereas a SS amplifier distortion is of a higher order which is very offensive. One reason SS must have low distortion numbers to sound good. Nelson Pass has admitted in some of his amplifiers he intentionally created a little 2nd and 3rd harmonic. He also has said many times that for years he designed amplifiers with low distortion numbers but now he creates what sounds best to him. When you get into high end amplifiers you are buying what the designer thinks sounds best to his ears. It's entertainment not all science.

 

Jean Hiraga I believe is the first to say an amplifier sounds best to him with a little 2nd harmonic and a touch of 3rd. 

[Racer X]

All excellent points above.  

 

My take is better tube amps sound more like solid state and vice versa.

 

Also, always amazed amps all sound differently, although some may be similar to others.

 

Finally, tube amp, solid state preamp, or vice versa, either approach works well.

 

In closing, know your preferences and trust your ears.

[Curious_George]

On 6/8/2022 at 7:48 AM, henry4841 said:

The KSC 1845 and KSA 992 which are excellent audio transistors commonly used for replacement transistors for old audio gear when the original transistors are obsolete. I have a couple hundred of each. 

I have a stash of these types as well, since they stopped making all the low noise transistors about 10 years ago. These Fairchild devices seem to work well for new designs as well as replacements. In a lot of cases, you can use 2N5551/2N5401, but even these have become "obsolete" recently, at least the standard TO-92 package. 

[Racer X]

Tube rolling: Believe this done with the smaller input tubes, not the output tubes.  It can be an interesting place for your next $100 upgrade and will affect the sound.  Also good to leave well enough alone, those input tubes not as likely to degrade as fast as the output tubes.

 

I once demoed a vintage class A amp, a Pioneer M22:  It had virtually no sound and I luckily flipped it right away.