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Heresy vs Other High End Heritage Klipsch


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4 hours ago, billybob said:

When I rule the world, going to put a Jubilee in every home.

Not to sound greedy, but can you up it to two? All of my media is in stereo.  😄

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I have found, almost ironically, the higher the sensitivity of the speaker the lower the volume at which I become engaged with the music.

 

On a quiet night with my La Scalas hovering just under 70db it always surprises me that I don’t feel the need to turn up the volume.

 

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58 minutes ago, geoff. said:

I have found, almost ironically, the higher the sensitivity of the speaker the lower the volume at which I become engaged with the music.

 

On a quiet night with my La Scalas hovering just under 70db it always surprises me that I don’t feel the need to turn up the volume.

 

It’s weird you say that. When I AB tested my Heresy IIIs against the La Scala AL5s, I had to up the gain via a control knob (on my Accuphase) for the Heresys to have an equal listening experience. The Heresys being less sensitive needed more power to have the same output as the La Scalas. When people test the higher sensitivity speakers they will be louder with the same input power. Does this trick some listeners I wonder? It is an old stereo salesperson trick to up the volume on the more expensive speakers they are trying to upsell to. This then makes the higher end speakers appear to sound better. 🤷‍♂️

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Agreed!  Speakers are mostly linear transducers at 1% (-20dB below) rated power. 

Distortion rises exponentially over 10% (-10dB) as moving parts become non-linear.

Gain compression can often reach 6+dB at full power, when 75% is wasted as heat.

The trick is to juggle your budget, room space, and Fletcher-Munson until you smile!

 

 

loudness-and-pitch-5-638.jpg

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We subjectively prefer the louder of 2 speakers in A/B comparisons, so equal-volume comparisons are mandatory.

Back in 1972, ADVE\T built a slick speaker switcher device for Sound of Music which I dubbed "The Lie Detector".

Allowed 2 of 8 stereo pairs of speakers to be selectively A/B compared at the same volume because it switched in

preamp-level screwdriver trim pots in the signal path to attenuate each speaker to match SPL in the listening room.

Very interesting when we compare sonics instead of decibels.

 

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9 hours ago, geoff. said:

I have found, almost ironically, the higher the sensitivity of the speaker the lower the volume at which I become engaged with the music.

 

On a quiet night with my La Scalas hovering just under 70db it always surprises me that I don’t feel the need to turn up the volume.

 

One attribute of high sensitivity speakers (drivers specifically) is their ability to resolve the micro-dynamics in the music. When all the high sensitivity components are put together in a well designed system, you have a great revealing speaker system. 

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7 hours ago, HiFi Heaven said:

The trick is to juggle your budget, room space, and Fletcher-Munson until you smile!

Sounds like another "economic discussion"... where did I hear that recently? 

 

Shoo (Schu) - fly, away with you.

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9 hours ago, geoff. said:

I have found, almost ironically, the higher the sensitivity of the speaker the lower the volume at which I become engaged with the music.

 

On a quiet night with my La Scalas hovering just under 70db it always surprises me that I don’t feel the need to turn up the volume.

 

 

8 hours ago, GlennyC said:

It’s weird you say that. When I AB tested my Heresy IIIs against the La Scala AL5s, I had to up the gain via a control knob (on my Accuphase) for the Heresys to have an equal listening experience. The Heresys being less sensitive needed more power to have the same output as the La Scalas. When people test the higher sensitivity speakers they will be louder with the same input power. Does this trick some listeners I wonder? It is an old stereo salesperson trick to up the volume on the more expensive speakers they are trying to upsell to. This then makes the higher end speakers appear to sound better. 🤷‍♂️

I listen at lower levels now and this is based on using a DB meter not the volume control. And I find more and more long time listeners I know doing the same when this topic comes up. As I succeed in weeding out poor quality recordings it has been my observation that in order to really hear the music with the spatial "like I was there" sound I want I can't turn it up loud. It is like there is a certain point where db level exceeds the ability of my ears and the environment to allow you to hear all there is and then things begin to devolve into what all goes boom boom and the subtle things go away.

 

  I still turn some things up when I want percussion to slam me but at that point I am not seeking fidelity anymore.

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8 hours ago, HiFi Heaven said:

We subjectively prefer the louder of 2 speakers in A/B comparisons, so equal-volume comparisons are mandatory.

 

  I was doing an A-B test of my 335's vs 396's last night (first time I've swapped the 335's back in since my 396's were completed) and as @geoff. and @Curious_George have stated I actually prefer the higher sensitivity, 3-way 335's (103db) at lower volumes. 68db or so. The 335's sound full, detailed and very engaging at the lowest levels where the 2-way 396's (101db) need to be up high 70's to get the same full sound and even then they don't seem quite as detailed as the 335's. Volume level comparisons were done with an spl meter. 

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On 6/10/2022 at 4:51 AM, GlennyC said:

Hello all. I have Heresy III speakers being driven by a B&K Reference 50 preamp and an Accuphase A30 amplifier. I also have a Sunfire True powered subwoofer with dual 12” woofers. This is not a question but a comment. I would like to see what people think. I have AB tested my set up against new La Scalas and find my Heresys to be quite satisfying. My premise is that all the additional size and expense of the large heritage speakers is to reproduce bass frequencies. I have great tweeters and midranges in my Heresys. Plus I have solved the low range frequency reproduction problems with an excellent powered subwoofer. There is no need for anything bigger main speaker wise at all. Save your money. I point to the new Jubilee as proof. They include dual 12” powered subwoofers. Save your money plus your wife/live in domestic partner will love you for not having to decorate around monsters. 

 

Good for you if you've found your happy spot!!  To your comment about the new Jubilee's, I think you are a bit in error.  Though they might have two 12" drivers, they are simply woofers and not subwoofers.  Also, (given my understanding of "powered speakers") they are not "powered" drivers either.  Amplification is provided outboard by the owner.  They do not have their own internal amplification (which to me is what "powered subwoofer" would mean)

 

That said, all is good.  You said you AB'd verses LaScalas.  Did you not find the scale of the LaScala to be a 'larger sounding speaker' than the Heresy?  That's what I find.  Tis one of the things I like about their larger speakers, including the Underground Jubilee (or even the new version) as both have the K402 horn on top (which would nearly swallow the Heresy in whole!)  The scale of sound is huge, forget how loud it might or might not go, but it sounds huge doing whatever is asked.  Once you get tuned into this, the smaller speakers start to sound more like toy speakers.  To this comment, I'm actually referring to my own LaScalas which I've owned since 1979 so I'm not bashing on them.  It's just a difference in  the scale of sound.

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On 6/10/2022 at 4:51 AM, GlennyC said:

I have AB tested my set up against new La Scalas and find my Heresys to be quite satisfying. My premise is that all the additional size and expense of the large heritage speakers is to reproduce bass frequencies.

 

I think this is largely true.  ..Deeper bass extension and greater SPL before distorting. 

 

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On 6/10/2022 at 4:51 AM, GlennyC said:

My premise is that all the additional size and expense of the large heritage speakers is to reproduce bass frequencies. 

Contradictions do not exist. Whenever you think you are facing a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong.

Ayn Rand

 

All the bulk of the large Heritage speakers such as the K-Horn & LaScala is not to reproduce bass frequencies. The large midrange horn (k-400, etc) is responsible for the  reproducing a significant portion of the audible range (4 octaves). The large bass enclosure in the K-Horn & LaScala also reproduce clean mid-bass due to their design which you are not going to get from a Heresy. 

 

Heresy's sound great with a subwoofer, but do not delude yourself into thinking that that combo is better than a K-Horn or LaScala. 

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On 6/10/2022 at 4:51 AM, GlennyC said:

 I have great tweeters and midranges in my Heresys.

 the Heresy is in itself a   great sounding speaker  ,  and for some klipsch Forum members , that 's all they need , and it's perfectly fine

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4 hours ago, Curious_George said:

Contradictions do not exist. Whenever you think you are facing a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong.

Ayn Rand

 

All the bulk of the large Heritage speakers such as the K-Horn & LaScala is not to reproduce bass frequencies. The large midrange horn (k-400, etc) is responsible for the  reproducing a significant portion of the audible range (4 octaves). The large bass enclosure in the K-Horn & LaScala also reproduce clean mid-bass due to their design which you are not going to get from a Heresy. 

 

Heresy's sound great with a subwoofer, but do not delude yourself into thinking that that combo is better than a K-Horn or LaScala. 

Yes. I was thinking that the larger sized Heritage speakers were only designed that way to reproduce a lower frequency bass signal, but I have come to realize from the responses to this post that the larger sized enclosure also allows for a larger midrange horn. I am luck because when I test the frequency response (Room EQ Wizard) of my set up with my Heresys and my powered sub I do get a nice flat curve above my ability hear on the high end and deep into the low end. And the result is very pleasing to me without the additional size, weight and expense. A hot rodded Chorus II set might be examined by me in the near future though just to see. 

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14 hours ago, Curious_George said:

Contradictions do not exist. Whenever you think you are facing a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong.

Ayn Rand

 

All the bulk of the large Heritage speakers such as the K-Horn & LaScala is not to reproduce bass frequencies. The large midrange horn (k-400, etc) is responsible for the  reproducing a significant portion of the audible range (4 octaves). The large bass enclosure in the K-Horn & LaScala also reproduce clean mid-bass due to their design which you are not going to get from a Heresy. 

 

Heresy's sound great with a subwoofer, but do not delude yourself into thinking that that combo is better than a K-Horn or LaScala. 

Yes indeed larger brings far more authority and presence to the same frequencies.

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Frequency response is important , but it’s the timbre that  gives a loud speaker it’s signature sound . If reproduction of sound was only about frequency response , then all speakers would sound about the same after equalization  . But they don’t , and that’s why  timbre is  important, loudspeaker timbre is influenced in a multitude  of ways , results of which may be difficult to describe and measure ,but this is why all speakers sound different from one another, unless the exact same components are used in their construction.🤓

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