Chorus 2 modded with more efficient woofer?

[001]

3 minutes ago, Edgar said:

Playing Devil's Advocate here: In a passive network, everything affects everything else. All of the components interact. Some of the interactions are minor, even negligible. Some are not. One would have to do a full circuit analysis and sensitivity study to quantify the effects.

 

Personally, I'm skeptical that changing capacitors in the mid/tweet section affects the bass in any significant way. But a full analysis could prove me wrong.

 

thanks. i can see how everything affects everything else...  im trying to understand how changing a couple caps in the mid/tweet section to the same value as original (but lower ESR) can cause a speaker to lose bass?  the OP is saying the bass output is severely lacking/anemic & the reply was its because he modified the crossovers... but the only thing changed were a couple mid/tweet caps. 

 

like you said, im not sure how that would just kill the bass because of changing 2 caps in a part of the crossover unrelated to the woofer/bass.  unfortunately myself & majority of others on here are not able to do a full analysis... so i thought asking a simple question might get some explanation from the source or other "reputable" person with knowledge on these things.   

[Edgar]

5 minutes ago, Crankysoldermeister said:

 

If the capacitors you choose bring the midrange and tweeter forward, you will hear less bass. 

Well, you'll hear the same bass, but more midrange and treble. But I get your drift.

[001]

18 minutes ago, Crankysoldermeister said:

 

If the capacitors you choose bring the midrange and tweeter forward, you will hear less bass. 

 

that may be the perception to some, but the bass itself remains the same & doesnt just go away so much so that will cause the OP & the speakers prev owner to say the bass is all but gone...  you just get a little more brightness from the lower ESR.  vast majority of crites upgrades ive heard may say sonicaps caused more brightness, but ive never heard it reduced the bass. ive never used sonicaps but the budget PP caps i have used have never hurt or changed the bass, im able to differentiate increased brightness from loss of bass.    but thanks for the reply.   

[Deang]

6 minutes ago, 001 said:

I'm trying to understand how changing a couple caps in the mid/tweet section to the same value as original (but lower ESR) can cause a speaker to lose bass?

 

It may not account for everything that is going on over there. It's just one of many possible things. One woofer with polarity reversed was also a good suggestion.

[Deang]

2 minutes ago, 001 said:

 

that may be the perception to some, but the bass itself remains the same & doesnt just go away so much so that will cause the OP & the speakers prev owner to say the bass is all but gone...  you just get a little more brightness from the lower ESR.  vast majority of crites upgrades ive heard may say sonicaps caused more brightness, but ive never heard it reduced the bass. ive never used sonicaps but the budget PP caps i have used have have never hurt or changed the bass, im able to differentiate increased brightness from loss of bass.    but thanks for the reply.   

 

Nothing fun about internet troubleshooting. I agree with what you're saying, but you're an experienced DIY guy and careful listener. We know next to nothing about the OP or his loudspeakers.

[Edgar]

4 minutes ago, 001 said:

im trying to understand how changing a couple caps in the mid/tweet section to the same value as original (but lower ESR) can cause a speaker to lose bass?

 

This brings up something about which I've been meaning to comment for a while, now.

 

ESR may not be the culprit. Understand that ESR (equivalent series resistance) in crossover capacitors is milliOhms or tens of milliOhms. (1 milliOhm is 1/1000 Ohm.) Furthermore, if you replace a 50 milliOhm ESR capacitor with a 1 milliOhm ESR capacitor, all you have to do to bring things back to where they were before is add 49 milliOhms of resistance. A piece of thin wire can do that.

 

There is more to capacitors than just capacitance and ESR. For example, there is stray inductance. Now, the inductance in crossover capacitors is so small that their self-resonance typically falls well above the audio range, but perhaps it shouldn't be neglected. There are other parasitic effects, too, and they must play into this somehow, else all capacitors would sound the same.

[Deang]

.

pp vs pet cap tests.pdf

[001]

Just now, Edgar said:

 

This brings up something about which I've been meaning to comment for a while, now.

 

ESR may not be the culprit. Understand that ESR (equivalent series resistance) in crossover capacitors is milliOhms or tens of milliOhms. (1 milliOhm is 1/1000 Ohm.) Furthermore, if you replace a 50 milliOhm ESR capacitor with a 1 milliOhm ESR capacitor, all you have to do to bring things back to where they were before is add 49 milliOhms of resistance. A piece of thin wire can do that.

 

There is more to capacitors than just capacitance and ESR. For example, there is stray inductance. Now, the inductance in crossover capacitors is so small that their self-resonance typically falls well above the audio range, but perhaps it shouldn't be neglected. There are other parasitic effects, too, and they must play into this somehow, else all capacitors would sound the same.

  

i am able to understand & accept that changing caps changes things,  the question some inquiring minds want to know is at what point does that actually affect or change the sound or function of the speaker for the average listener?  if most cant hear these very subtle changes & it doesnt damage anything, why all the fuss?  some people like slight changes like brighter overall sound or changing older models to titanium tweeter diaphragms etc.

 

the car analogies still applies here,  if you change the mufflers on your mustang for better sound & increased performance due to better air flow from the restrictive cost limited stock mufflers, is that bad or does it make it not a mustang anymore because the new better mufflers arent authorized by ford?   

[Edgar]

@Crankysoldermeister, those values are about an order of magnitude higher than what I found when I searched just prior to posting my comment. It's possible that the values I found were all measured at some fixed frequency, like maybe 10 kHz. Regardless, thanks for the info.

[Edgar]

9 minutes ago, 001 said:

  is that bad or does it make it not a mustang anymore because the new better mufflers arent authorized by ford?   

 

That appears to be a contentious subject here in the Forums. Chief Bonehead contends that modifications render the speaker to be "non-Klipsch". Some others feel that it's still Klipsch in its essence. Some of us don't care.

[Deang]

5 minutes ago, Edgar said:

@Crankysoldermeister, those values are about an order of magnitude higher than what I found when I searched just prior to posting my comment. It's possible that the values I found were all measured at some fixed frequency, like maybe 10 kHz. Regardless, thanks for the info.

Yes, 10kHz is most likely what was used with those results. 

[Deang]

It's still a Mustang, but ...

 

"There's a type of electronic fuel injection that was very popular in the 1980's, 90s, and two thousands, that used a manifold air pressure (MAP) sensor to determine the mass flow rate of the air going through the engine. Typically, when the engine would go to wide open throttle, the amount of air pressure inside the intake manifold would be equal to the barometric pressure. If the exhaust system were to be improved by removing a simple cast exhaust manifold and replacing it with a performance header, the air flow rate will go up. As the MAP sensor will still be reading barometric pressure, the computer system will have no way to detect the extra air. In this way, the engine will run leaner and could damage the exhaust valves or the tops of the pistons."

[mboxler]

Since we're talking about the woofer circuit, I'd be more concerned with the condition of the 68uf electrolytic (?) shunt capacitors.

[Khornukopia]

On 7/18/2022 at 6:28 AM, Bubba_Buoy said:

My Chorus 2's either lack bass, or have too much of the rest. It's not zero bass, it's just the ratio doesn't seem quite right.

On 7/18/2022 at 8:20 PM, geoff. said:

If the woofers managed to get hooked up out of phase you would be missing the bass.

 

Maybe pop out the passives, carefully, no hurry, and have a look-see.

 

Chorus 2 should have plenty of bass.

 

1 hour ago, Crankysoldermeister said:

... One woofer with polarity reversed was also a good suggestion.

 

@Bubba_Buoy, I also wonder about the two woofers polarity being positively correct, from the amplifier output to the woofer terminals. 

[JohnA]

39 minutes ago, Crankysoldermeister said:

It's still a Mustang, but ...

 

"There's a type of electronic fuel injection that was very popular in the 1980's, 90s, and two thousands, that used a manifold air pressure (MAP) sensor to determine the mass flow rate of the air going through the engine. Typically, when the engine would go to wide open throttle, the amount of air pressure inside the intake manifold would be equal to the barometric pressure. If the exhaust system were to be improved by removing a simple cast exhaust manifold and replacing it with a performance header, the air flow rate will go up. As the MAP sensor will still be reading barometric pressure, the computer system will have no way to detect the extra air. In this way, the engine will run leaner and could damage the exhaust valves or the tops of the pistons."

 

LOL!  Speed density EFI could also adapt using the O2 sensor and Intake Air Temp sensor, so it was not so dire as that.  Add in that the WOT A/F ratio was 12 to 12.5:1 and the best power mixture is almost always 13.2:1, a *little* leaning is a good thing.  BTDT with mt '87 Mustang GT.  I measured EGTs on each bank to get an independent (cheap) look at WOT leanness.  

 

Off topic, so I'll also say, it's still a Mustang.... 

And I have decided metalized polypropylene caps sound subtly gritty.  😉

[ClaudeJ1]

2 hours ago, 001 said:

some people like slight changes like brighter overall sound or changing older models to titanium tweeter diaphragms etc.

Remember that ears get older and the old guys need that boost to compensate, while driving teen agers crazy!

 

[Deang]

44 minutes ago, JohnA said:

And I have decided metalized polypropylene caps sound subtly gritty. 

 

The cheap ones do. You also need good recordings to notice it. That's not showing up on the stuff I play. 

 

I prefer film and foil, but at this point I've decided to acquiesce to Roy's position. There are other networks I can build with those parts. This is not a seismic shift in my thinking, just an acknowledgment that if I'm going to build a Klipsch network, I should build a "Klipsch" network. This also fills a gap -- it services those who don't want the mods, and who also need someone to do the work for them. 

 

It's amazing what you can get out of Roy if you know the secret code. The problem with the secret code is that it's "secret". Quite the inconvenience. You also need the decoder ring. I don't have that yet.

[Deang]

26 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

Remember that ears get older and the old guys need that boost to compensate, while driving teen agers crazy!

 

 

To be honest, if you replace 30-40 year old capacitors, there should be a noticeable increase in squawker and tweeter output - regardless of what capacitor type you use.

[geoff.]

I recently put some cheap Solens with the correct values in a stock pair of AAs that always fell short of my expectations, almost like the tweeters were blown. 

 

It was day and night.

[Marvel]

8 hours ago, 001 said:

that may be the perception to some, but the bass itself remains the same & doesnt just go away so much so that will cause the OP & the speakers prev owner to say the bass is all but gone...  you just get a little more brightness

The opposite is also true. Many people have come on here and said their LaScalas have no bass and the midrange is like a buzz saw in their forehead. When I lowered the midrange to balance the output of the bass, I could turn the gain up and it didn't hurt the head so much and the bass sounded more full.