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Hifi's obsession w/ imaging...


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1 hour ago, Racer X said:

Also, if it's too loud, you're too old....

 

That’s become kind of inverted now, in that our adult kids are likely to ask us to turn down the volume.  They don’t seem to be accustomed to or comfortable with “electric music, solid walls of sound” like we are.

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44 minutes ago, Islander said:

 

That’s become kind of inverted now, in that our adult kids are likely to ask us to turn down the volume.  They don’t seem to be accustomed to or comfortable with “electric music, solid walls of sound” like we are.

 

Or maybe they just don't appreciate your taste in music?

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5 hours ago, Racer X said:

 

Or maybe they just don't appreciate your taste in music?

 

No, my  daughter and I do share some favourite bands, and we've been to concerts together, including The Cure and Pink Floyd.  She just doesn't seem to appreciate music played what just seems like medium loud volume to me, at home or in my van.  I get the impression that many of the Gen X kids feel that way for some reason.

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Kind of an odd story:  Shortly after I had received LaScala during the family Christmas gathering at my house, I was demoing them in my room for my cousins.  Of course this required "medium loud" volume, but every time I would crank the volume past a certain point, one of my younger cousins about 8 or 9 years old would start screaming like he was possessed and refused to leave the room, thwarting my demo.  Tragically about 10 years later, it turned out he was possessed by demons....

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2 hours ago, HiFi Heaven said:

How do you have a "flat response system" without EQ for speakers, room, components?

You need to get a grip on acoustics.  AudioTool will calibrate your ears & your room.

Sowa.jpg

 

Yes, exactly.  Once I tried to equalize my room system for flat response with a 1/3 octave equalizer and a sine wave generator and db meter ( very early days, long time ago ).  To me the result sounded TERRIBLE.  Big fan of Fletcher Munson and his curve.

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Provided that a loudspeaker or a hi-fi system has "in itself" the right set up, I was always a friend of tone control on the amp or preamp. All the amps without tone control pretend "more authenticity, more resolution, more transparency" etc.. This does not have to be a contradiction. If one wants, he/she can buy an amp where you can even bypass the tone control. I would not want to do without it.

I think that since the 1950s the invention of the "loudness" button was a direct answer to the Fletcher-Munson curve. It was a nice and logical attempt, but I personally have not been able to make friends with the "loudness" button on any device. Most of the time this curve did not match the real conditions. However, there are devices where you can freely adjust the "loudness" curve to the volume played. I'm always satisfied when I simply have bass and treble controls, or additional mid-range controls as in the past with Marantz receivers or a "tilt" adjuster as with Quad pre amps.
I'm talking about analog tone control.

 

Funnily enough, in recent years the hifi mainstream has often tipped from the "purist" pre amps without any tone control into the opposite. The marketing has rushed to the possibilities of digital tone control. Not to be confused with the need for a DSP e.g. in a crossover where the settings are part of the system set up.

What I mean is that consumers are once again getting e.g. knobs like they used to be in the former analog world. My parents had a big mono radio with built in drivers in the early 1960s. When I was learning to read I was quite fascinated about what was written on many buttons: jazz, classical, church, easy listening, big band, radio drama and more (rock music didn't exist yet🙃
So similar it is today again in digital with e.g. Yamaha receivers but more addressed to the „feel of room“ like concert hall 1 and 2, club atmosphere, live concert etc.

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I'd also like to relate that when I'm at the library studying the internet on my PC while listening to the YouTube on earbuds, I have to remember to click on my plug in equalizer app, it greatly improves the sound.

 

At home on the room stereo, don't use the digital equalizer, greatly prefer the analog knobs bass and treble.  Don't move them often, but sometimes a source change demands adjustment.

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I think the term 'purist', as used in the manner described above, does NOT portend to being more accurate to the source, it merely means there is nothing added to the signal... and that's not the same thing as what is be touted.

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On 8/6/2022 at 8:01 AM, ODS123 said:

they all seemed to be coming from the same place.  Yet, I thought the sound was fabulous and the performances incredibly compelling.

Good tonality, wide dynamics, even distribution to the audience at all frequencies, etc. doesn't have to be loud or have a stereo image.

 

That "imaging" is reserved for home playback of good recordings (jazz and classical being better than most pop) and not amplified concerts. Headphones being the #1 playback source also, not speakers at home.

 

So what is the Problem exactly?????

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5 hours ago, KT88 said:

What I mean is that consumers are once again getting e.g. knobs like they used to be in the former analog world.

A friend of mine got lots of used stuff from me and I designed and helped build a Subwoofer for him using twin 15" drivers in a BR box to be flat to 30 hz. in his pole barn. He has not one, but TWO Pioneer pre amps with 4 analog tone control knobs he simply will never stops messing with for each song. You are not alone.

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On 8/9/2022 at 7:50 PM, OO1 said:

they were sold off back in the  70's  , the 73 oil crisis ,  ,  the Wall of Sound was  too costly  to haul  around   .

Costly is relative term. I saw Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon tour in Quadraphonic at Cobo Hall (1972-3?) with the best seats in the house for $4.50, 5.50 and 6.50 each. According to CDC's CPI calculator, the price for concert tickets should be from $35 to $45 these days. Whereas, the real price in 2022 is $75 to $2,000 or more. So I guess the Dead's management should have raised prices to accomodate.

 

Have your seen modern sound systems of the last 20 years for "world tours." Makes that old "wall of sound" look like a garage sale system in comparison to the modern structures in the middle of 100,000 seat stadiums. Like U2, Madonna, Paul McCartney, etc. where the tickets are now ridiculous and makes Millionaires out of musicians that didn't die from drug overdoses in the process.

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 No EQ or tone controls would be perfect IMO if all recordings / media were created equal-- obviously they are not so no matter how "dialed in" your system may be or how well treated your room is there are going to be songs / CD's that can benefit from a little EQ adjustment.

 

I added a little 5 band Kenwood EQ with sub controls (gain and crossover point) in my car years back and man I really liked it at first... a song would come on and I got to where I in just a few seconds could tweak it to perfection, problem was yeah, I wanted to do it to almost every song that came on quite the distraction every 3-4 minutes while driving. 

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23 hours ago, Edgar said:

 

I do not understand the difference.

 

I do know that, when a vocal or instrument seems to appear in my room, in a location where a speaker is not, and it raises the hair on the back of my neck, something special has just occurred.

Listen to "Amused to Death" by Pink Floyd's former bassist, Roger Waters. Voices come forward left sidewalls, making it sound as if it's 5 channels, but it's only 2. Spooky at best.

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Just now, ClaudeJ1 said:

Listen to "Amused to Death" by Pink Floyd's former bassist, Roger Waters. Voices come forward left sidewalls, making it sound as if it's 5 channels, but it's only 2. Spooky at best.

QSound

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2 hours ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

I saw Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon tour in Quadraphonic at Cobo Hall (1972-3?) with the best seats in the house for $4.50, 5.50 and 6.50 each.

MAN YOU ARE OLD AS DIRT!  Jimi was $3,4,5 at the Fillmore East in 1968.   Maybe I'm older than dirt?  😂

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37 minutes ago, Dave1291 said:

MAN YOU ARE OLD AS DIRT!  Jimi was $3,4,5 at the Fillmore East in 1968.   Maybe I'm older than dirt?  😂

Yeah - you gotta problem with dirt? Saw Hendrix in KC ‘68 or ‘69 , 5 bucks 

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