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Audio Research I/50 vs Decware (int.amp) La Scala- has anyone compared


Ted S

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15 hours ago, ODS123 said:

 

I'll share a quote gleaned from another Forum.  This from Alan Shaw of Harbeth.  ..I'm betting PWK would say something similar

 

 "One of the greatest mysteries and acts of insanity in the audio business was the deletion of tone controls from hifi amplifiers from about the 1980s with some utterly discreditable mumbo jumbo that 'tone controls are no part of a hifi system'. I can categorically assure you that a properly designed and executed tone control circuit does not degrade the signal quality and never has done... Tone controls were deleted from hifi amps as a marketing gimmick to attract a new 'minimalist' consumer away from amps laden with buttons and controls."
 

(thank you Keiron99 on Steve Hoffman forum)

Yet with a properly set-up hifi system, you don't need them. Only with some genuinely bad recordings can they help, but how many of those recordings do we actually own? 

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15 hours ago, pcbiz said:

 

Sounds right. It's similar to the live audio world. When these digital mixers hit the market, the word from the manufacturers was that they were 'better'. They actually degraded the sound, and many drummers have thrown their sticks at the sound man that tried to prove otherwise.

But that's a completely different issue. it's the eternal debate of digital vs analogue. I own an analogue active crossover because I think it just sounds better and I just don't currently need all the bells and whistles of a DSP based crossover; most people nowadays would just jump at a DSP based solution, often the cheapest ones, like miniDSP, thinking that "it's digital so it doesn't degrade the signal" which is just plain false.

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17 hours ago, pcbiz said:

 

Sounds right. It's similar to the live audio world. When these digital mixers hit the market, the word from the manufacturers was that they were 'better'. They actually degraded the sound, and many drummers have thrown their sticks at the sound man that tried to prove otherwise.

 

I was stage hand for big venues and international tours in the 80's during my studies. What a great sound with bands like Lionel Richie, U2, Prince and of course many more. Everything was analog. The only digital thing was the Sony discman the sound engineers fed the Donald Fagon IGY into the mixer to test the PA before the soundcheck. Those were the days, with Clair Brothers, Turbosound speaker etc. Today, many live concerts sound synthetically and compressed like a radio station, with "hi-fi" treble and toms and snare without smack.

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18 hours ago, ODS123 said:

 

I'll share a quote gleaned from another Forum.  This from Alan Shaw of Harbeth.  ..I'm betting PWK would say something similar

 

 "One of the greatest mysteries and acts of insanity in the audio business was the deletion of tone controls from hifi amplifiers from about the 1980s with some utterly discreditable mumbo jumbo that 'tone controls are no part of a hifi system'. I can categorically assure you that a properly designed and executed tone control circuit does not degrade the signal quality and never has done... Tone controls were deleted from hifi amps as a marketing gimmick to attract a new 'minimalist' consumer away from amps laden with buttons and controls."
 

(thank you Keiron99 on Steve Hoffman forum)

 

How right Alan is!

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6 hours ago, Rolox said:

... but how many of those recordings do we actually own? 

 

I honestly can't tell if you're joking or not.  

 

..I have lot's of recordings that are too bright or the bass, when listening at near "live" levels, begins to shake my kitchen cupboards.  A small amount of treble/ bass adjustment in such cases enhances my enjoyment.  ..I don't get mired down with purist thinking.

 

And remember I'm also referring to a Mono switch. ..I use that pretty often.  ..Lots of 50's and 60's recordings have very gimmicking stereo mixing.  ..Like the guitar entirely from one channel and the vocals from the others (e.g., some old Beatles tracks).  ..These songs are MUCH better sounding with the mono switch engaged.

 

I agree wholeheartedly w/ Alan Harbeth.  The audio industry has gaslighted us into thinking tone controls are bad (eg., they damage the signal w/ add'l breaks; they change what the artist intended, etc..).  In truth, the " minimalism is better" argument is entirely self-serving to the industry.  To wit: It's much easier and cheaper to make an integrated amp that has just a volume control.  ..No thanks to that, imho.

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I have lot's of recordings that are too bright or the bass, when listening at near "live" levels, begins to shake my kitchen cupboards. 

 

You should check your front end components and room issues. I think you'll find that much of this can be corrected without tone controls.

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On 8/22/2022 at 6:37 AM, ODS123 said:

They all have balance controls, tone controls, and a mono switch - common sense features that make listening to all kinds of music of varying recording quality more enjoyable.  

 

I guess one could live without tone controls, balance, or mono switch, but why ?

 

I roll my balance as often as my volume....

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54 minutes ago, Racer X said:

 

I guess one could live without tone controls, balance, or mono switch, but why ?

 

I roll my balance as often as my volume....


That puts it perfectly and succinctly.   Why, when they do no harm, go without?

 

DSP Room correction, room treatments etc. can all help with room induced imperfections….    But to correct a bad recording sometimes requires a turn to the left and other times a turn to the right of bass / treble.  None of the aforementioned remedies to room problems will correct that.

 

As I look back over the years the audiophiles that most loved music had integrated amps with tone controls And usually with a much larger music library.  They would eagerly listen to a great but poorly recorded song (with judicious use of tone controls) while the purest audiophile would push that recording to the back of their library as they preferred to listen to only near perfect recordings, often of mediocre music

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On 8/22/2022 at 7:10 AM, ODS123 said:

 

I'll share a quote gleaned from another Forum.  This from Alan Shaw of Harbeth.  ..I'm betting PWK would say something similar

 

 "One of the greatest mysteries and acts of insanity in the audio business was the deletion of tone controls from hifi amplifiers from about the 1980s with some utterly discreditable mumbo jumbo that 'tone controls are no part of a hifi system'. I can categorically assure you that a properly designed and executed tone control circuit does not degrade the signal quality and never has done... Tone controls were deleted from hifi amps as a marketing gimmick to attract a new 'minimalist' consumer away from amps laden with buttons and controls."
 

(thank you Keiron99 on Steve Hoffman forum)

 

The devil is in the details: "properly designed and executed tone control circuit does not degrade the signal quality ...." That's the challenge. Engineers would spend a lot of time arguing first over, "just what should a useful tone control DO?" Is 20dB boost at 30 Hz, necessary? Is 3dB cut at 1kHz enough? What's the value of 10dB cut at 20kHz? Maybe a 10-band parametric EQ should be embedded into a preamp? In fact, is "tone control" a different entity from "equalization?"

 

The number and quality of parts involved surely is an issue for cost and SQ. Scratchy pots, cheap capacitors, additional stages, certainly are parts of the decision. Extra stages absolutely 100% WILL alter the SQ. I doubt any audio engineer would argue against that.

 

The system also presents issues. If bookshelf speakers are in use, isn't SOME bass-boost useful? In certain glassy rooms, or if using some peaky phono cartridges, isn't some treble cut useful? Also, no two producers agree on how to EQ and master recordings, so there is no consistency there to rely upon. 

 

The last statement about the reasons TC were eliminated is a dubious opinion. A more likely reason is that engineers could not imagine a TC system that would be meaningful for "most" of their buyers. If you look at the older circuits, from say a PAS 3, I doubt many contemporary users would find it useful as all the cuts and boosts are centered at 1kHz. Possibly useful in 1968, but today? I think a good reason to leave them off might be that parametric equalizers are a better answer for people who like to fiddle the tone. Just guessing about what tone adjustments would be useful sounds like a deadly waste of time.

 

 

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Parametric is infinitely adjustable and infinitely confusing, difficult to set quickly.

 

Classic bass knob centered at 60 Hz and treble knob centered at 10 kHz go a long way, and are easily quickly tweaked.  EQ is mostly flat until a source demands adjustment.

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1 hour ago, RealMarkDeneen said:

 

The devil is in the details: "properly designed and executed tone control circuit does not degrade the signal quality ...." That's the challenge. Engineers would spend a lot of time arguing first over, "just what should a useful tone control DO?" Is 20dB boost at 30 Hz, necessary? Is 3dB cut at 1kHz enough? What's the value of 10dB cut at 20kHz? Maybe a 10-band parametric EQ should be embedded into a preamp? In fact, is "tone control" a different entity from "equalization?"

 

The number and quality of parts involved surely is an issue for cost and SQ. Scratchy pots, cheap capacitors, additional stages, certainly are parts of the decision. Extra stages absolutely 100% WILL alter the SQ. I doubt any audio engineer would argue against that.

 

The system also presents issues. If bookshelf speakers are in use, isn't SOME bass-boost useful? In certain glassy rooms, or if using some peaky phono cartridges, isn't some treble cut useful? Also, no two producers agree on how to EQ and master recordings, so there is no consistency there to rely upon. 

 

The last statement about the reasons TC were eliminated is a dubious opinion. A more likely reason is that engineers could not imagine a TC system that would be meaningful for "most" of their buyers. If you look at the older circuits, from say a PAS 3, I doubt many contemporary users would find it useful as all the cuts and boosts are centered at 1kHz. Possibly useful in 1968, but today? I think a good reason to leave them off might be that parametric equalizers are a better answer for people who like to fiddle the tone. Just guessing about what tone adjustments would be useful sounds like a deadly waste of time.

 

 

 

I don’t think “guessing what tone adjustments would be useful“ is any more of a “deadly (?) waste of time” than, say,  decisions that go into a speakers crossover points, frequency cut-off, etc…. Besides, all McIntosh, Luxman, and Accuphase integrated amps that feature tone controls also have defeat switches.  This makes it easy for the listener - when they encounter an imperfectly recorded song - to decide for themselves if adjusting bass and/or treble improves the sound or makes it worse.   If the latter, then leave them zeroed or hit the defeat switch.

 

The argument that the additional signal breaks needed for tone controls or even their defeat switches somehow deteriorates the signal is utterly ridiculous in my opinion. Take a look at a mixing board. Pretty much every audiophile approved recording from Steely Dan to Diana Krall to Norah Jones was produced using a mixing board with literally hundreds and hundreds of signal breaks required by the various pots, sliders, and switches.  Yet the music that comes out the other end of these things is thoroughly enjoyable.  …If every signal break deteriorated the sound then what would come out the other end of a mixing board would be unrecognizable. 
 

Btw, I’ve had my McIntosh integrated for nearly 8 years and there is not one iota of scratchiness or noise in any of the switches.
 

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