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Removing crossovers Chorus I ?


SonicSeeker
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5 minutes ago, SonicSeeker said:

I am going to refresh the crossovers in my Chorus speakers today and before I attempt I was hoping to get some guidance on removal to save time.

You'll have to remove the woofer and tweeter be sure to mark the positive on the mid before disconnecting those wires or you might have to pull the mid driver to see factory markings. The crossovers are soldered to the input plugs so they'll need to be de-soldered to get them off the input cup. 

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12 minutes ago, jjptkd said:

You'll have to remove the woofer and tweeter be sure to mark the positive on the mid before disconnecting those wires or you might have to pull the mid driver to see factory markings. The crossovers are soldered to the input plugs so they'll need to be de-soldered to get them off the input cup. 

Thank you

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definitely mark all wires before removal.  but to actually remove the crossovers is pretty easy, just remove the screws & the speaker terminal cup should come right out,  with a little finagling, but should be easy to see how they come out.  

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@SonicSeeker, heat is a killer for capacitors. It is really easy to fry the capacitors if you leave the soldering iron on them too long. This knowledge is from personal experience, lol. Another poster had the humility to share his similar experience years ago too. If the iron doesn’t have enough watts it takes too long to work.

 

Touch and go.

 

I used “cheap” caps on a pair of Chorus 2 crossovers years ago and could not discern any difference after the refresh.

 

I used “cheap” caps on a pair of AA crossovers recently and the difference was day and night. 

 

“Better” quality caps are always larger than what came out and take a little finagling so that brings me to the other thing I remember. Take your time.

 

 

 

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I tear them out with my teeth. 
 

 

 

Remove the old solder.

 

Pull the leads through the holes using small needle nose pliers. 
 

Wiggle the caps back and forth and pull them off the board. 
 

Clean the old glue off with a razor blade.

 

Wipe both sides of the board down with alcohol.

 

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23 hours ago, geoff. said:

@SonicSeeker, heat is a killer for capacitors. It is really easy to fry the capacitors if you leave the soldering iron on them too long. This knowledge is from personal experience, lol. Another poster had the humility to share his similar experience years ago too. If the iron doesn’t have enough watts it takes too long to work.

 

 

it's a good idea to use some type of heat sink when soldering caps,  an alligator clip with some aluminum foil on the jaws will do fine, clamp it on the lead being soldered & it will absorb excess heat before damaging the cap. 

 

"test it for ESR" - the average hobbyist probably doesnt have a meter that can test ESR, those can be rather expensive. 

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The speakers sounded good before I changed the caps, maybe a little tizzy and thin if I am looking for something perceived to comment on.

They did not sound veiled to me. they also did not sound as good as I remembered my original Chorus sounding years ago.

I figured different room, amplifier, older ears etc..

Short answer they needed new caps.

They sound full crisp fast and tight and the bass is hitting me in the chest, they sound like I remember them now.

Love it.

 

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21 hours ago, SonicSeeker said:

The speakers sounded good before I changed the caps, maybe a little tizzy and thin if I am looking for something perceived to comment on.

They did not sound veiled to me. they also did not sound as good as I remembered my original Chorus sounding years ago.

I figured different room, amplifier, older ears etc..

Short answer they needed new caps.

They sound full crisp fast and tight and the bass is hitting me in the chest, they sound like I remember them now.

Love it.

 

 

what caps did you use?  

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21 hours ago, SonicSeeker said:

https://jemperformanceaudio.com/

I ordered from JEM and I don't know what brand they are.

Maybe someone else here knows.

 

just curious what you used, jem are the same type as the originals. 

 

if you noticed that much of an improvement, then the whole "film caps never go bad" thing is incorrect.  or it was just changing the electrolytics, but most say they wont change the sound since they're not in the signal path & only for the woofer dump section. 

 

  

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On 8/24/2022 at 11:26 AM, 001 said:

 

just curious what you used, jem are the same type as the originals. 

 

if you noticed that much of an improvement, then the whole "film caps never go bad" thing is incorrect.  or it was just changing the electrolytics, but most say they wont change the sound since they're not in the signal path & only for the woofer dump section. 

 

  

 

Who said "film caps never go bad"?

 

They're not exactly the same. The dielectric is the same but construction is different. Lead attachment is different too, which is probably the reason the older films caps are having some issues. Leads on the older caps were pressed on/in with a conductive paste and are prone to moisture creep and corrosion. Leads on most metallized caps these days are attached using an end spray and soldered/welded. 

 

FYI, both the Chorus and Chorus II use an electrolytic for the midrange. I don't know about the Forte/ Forte II and all the others - it's been years since I've worked on any of them.

 

If Klipsch/Roy says capacitors sound different, I don't think I'm going to argue with that.

 

I sent the OP to JEM. I did it because he just wanted them back the way they were. People who think that way shouldn't get beat up for it. If someone wants something different, there are options for them too.

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23 hours ago, Crankysoldermeister said:

 

Who said "film caps never go bad"?

 

They're not exactly the same. The dielectric is the same but construction is different. Lead attachment is different too, which is probably the reason the older films caps are having some issues. Leads on the older caps were pressed on/in with a conductive paste and are prone to moisture creep and corrosion. Leads on most metallized caps these days are attached using an end spray and soldered/welded. 

 

FYI, both the Chorus and Chorus II use an electrolytic for the midrange. I don't know about the Forte/ Forte II and all the others - it's been years since I've worked on any of them.

 

If Klipsch/Roy says capacitors sound different, I don't think I'm going to argue with that.

 

I sent the OP to JEM. I did it because he just wanted them back the way they were. People who think that way shouldn't get beat up for it. If someone wants something different, there are options for them too.

 

a few people on here have said film caps dont go bad or at least not in the 25-30 year time frames most go by or even wont go bad within our lifetime... captainbeefheart is the most recent one, he was very adamant that film caps rarely if ever go bad or fall out of spec on a recent thread about changing caps. 

 

didnt say they were exactly the same, but they are supposed to be the same type/specs as original, which is why they are "authorized" & any other type or brand of cap will make the speakers no longer be klipsch speakers... 

 

right, there is 1 electrolytic in the signal path of chorus, forgot about that.  but no other models of this era use them in the signal path, or at least not fortes/2, quartet, or any of the KG's.  changing the woofer shunt lytic has been said to affect the sound & some use film caps there because they said they could hear a difference.  others like bob crites have said they wont affect the sound being they arent in the signal path for most other speakers.  that is what i meant about changing the woofer electrolytic cap. 

 

not arguing that caps can sound different, yourself & many others for years have said caps sound different & seeing some of the work youve done & the caps you use, im sure there are "better" quality/sounding caps than original. 

 

nothing wrong with using original type/jem caps to keep things original, i have never beat anyone up over using jem or keeping original caps, i have even been open to using originals/jem if some of my questions would have been answered about PP vs PE caps or using other brands of PE caps that should have the same or very close ESR as originals so as to not change the voltage curve... but i gave up on getting any answers about that.

 

glad the OP is happy with his new caps.     

 

 

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1 hour ago, 001 said:

he was very adamant that film caps rarely if ever go bad or fall out of spec

 

I would have to disagree with him about that. Crites has hundreds of measurements on the old cans and the blue epoxy types, and ESR measurements are all over the map, and many measure horrible.

 

1 hour ago, 001 said:

which is why they are "authorized" & any other type or brand of cap will make the speakers no longer be klipsch speakers

 

If you can find another polyester type that is of the same value and within tolerance, I can't imagine that not being okay. 

 

1 hour ago, 001 said:

electrolytic ... others like bob crites have said they wont affect the sound being they arent in the signal path for most other speakers.

 

It's AC. Something doesn't have to be in the signal path to have an effect. Or think of it this way, if it has no effect on the sound, why is the part in there in the first place. As for the substitution of an electrolytic in place of a polyester at the shunt position in the low pass, my guess would be that ESR is close to a polyester at the frequencies the part is intended to work.

 

1 hour ago, 001 said:

i have never beat anyone up over using jem or keeping original caps,

 

I know you haven't. I was speaking in general terms. The statement actually reflects more on myself and past behavior.

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thanks for the reply, a lot of stuff gets posted on here that may or may not be true.  captain also claimed the twisted wires in one members chorus were hurting the sound because they were twisted, i mentioned some brands do that on purpose, then you identified the wires as high dollar quality wires.  the film caps not going bad was also a claim ive heard more than once, i stated my experience with the caps in my chorus 2 sounding horrible, changed to the budget PP caps i use in many other speakers & they sound excellent, night & day improvement.  & ive owned 2 other pairs of chorus2 with originals caps that sounded fine,  the recapped ones sounded slightly better in the mid & treble range when A-B in same room, same system.  cant say i noticed any voltage curve change in the sound on any klipsch or other brands of speakers ive recapped,  but then again my ears arent sensitive measuring equipment. 

 

another polyester type with same value-  i agree it should be OK to use similar type PE caps, i asked about comparing 2 similar types of PE caps that should have very close ESR & tolerances, even mentioned a specific brand as an example that claims they use highest quality film but are far cheaper price than the authorized ones... no answer to that or the other cap related questions i asked awhile back.

 

i cant answer why that was said about woofer shunt caps, but crites was very specific that film caps arent needed in the woofer shunt circuit because its not in the signal path.  makes sense, but also makes sense that out of spec lytics for the woofer can let some unwanted freq through to the woofers. 

 

i think the whole jem/stock vs PP cap thing has valid points on both sides.  as ive said a few times,  before jem caps were around, everyone raved about crites or other peoples work like yourself, ALK, etc for replacing low cost original caps that were considered to be of less quality or may have fallen out of spec after 25+ years.  majority if not all the current people who use crites still say the same positive things.  im all for learning & trying new things, but so far i have yet to hear this stated difference from using budget PP caps in the middle models of klipsch,  never tried changing the caps in my AK3 or AA K-horn crossovers.      

 

  

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Most of your questions have been answered, just not to your satisfaction. 

 

7 hours ago, 001 said:

before jem caps were around, everyone raved about crites or other peoples work like yourself, ALK, etc for replacing low cost original caps that were considered to be of less quality or may have fallen out of spec after 25+ years.

 

I don't remember it that way. What most people used to do was complain about how the midrange was too bright. Enter the ALK Universal. This allowed people to dial it down without having to deal with changing parts. Al used the nice caps because people wanted them, but he always thought it was extravagant waste. Others just knocked 3dB off of the midrange by dropping down a tap and changing the capacitor value. Not everyone liked that forward midrange. Now, when you knock it back, you've created some space you can move around in and using a very low ESR capacitor isn't that big of a deal -- though all of this does change what Klipsch intended.

 

After I bought my Klipschorns and started modding them, I built a lot of different networks with a lot of different parts. I didn't like the GE cans and I definitely didn't like the Sonicaps when I tried them. Even after adjusting for the brightness, I found the sound thin and two dimensional. At some point I tried Jensen paper in oils, and stayed there, well, I think until I sold them. I did a lot of Jensen builds back then. 

 

Most people can't afford to try a lot of different networks. They pick one and tend to stick with it, and most aren't nearly as critical as someone like me. People will generally prefer ANYTHING new to the sound of a 40 year old failing network. 

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