Removing crossovers Chorus I ?

[Deang]

8 minutes ago, OO1 said:

JEM sells the klipsch capacitors line of products, for the Klipsch speaker owners who want to use genuine Klipsch parts to rebuild their crossovers, and these owners really care to buy a  "Klipsch approved" product ...

 

Yes, we know. 🙂

[Deang]

@001 You commented about capacitor costs from JEM. $60 - $100 for a kit isn't bad at all. You'll pay about the same for Vishay capacitors from Mouser, and you won't get the exact values. 

[Curious_George]

Ground Hog Day...

[JEM]

1 hour ago, Racer X said:

OK, I have just reached out directly to JEM for a kit for Randy, anxiously awaiting their reply....

 

Perhaps if the dozen or so other forum members familiar with this cause will also reach out directly to @JEM Performance, we can enact an early Christmas miracle.

For some reason, I don't receive messages through the forum.  The Klipsch community alerts me that I have a message but nothing appears in my inbox.  I have mentioned this before on this forum: in order to get in touch with me you need to send an email to theaudioroom@verizon.net.  Very easy to do. 

 

 

[JEM]

6 hours ago, 001 said:

& the "authorized" thing, some want an upgrade from the stock sound or to use an alternative thats priced better.  one of my questions was comparing jem to other same type PE caps... why are jem so much more expensive (ive seen $40-60 for a pair of fortes that are just 4 film caps & 2 lytics),  all other PE caps are less than $1ea & are likely the same quality, possibly better.  ive asked for some basic details on that or comparison to other PE caps,  but i understand klipsch probably isnt going to comment on that one.     

Why do my capacitor kits cost more than other brands?  I am sure you are aware of the current inflation, manufacturing and transportation costs.  I'm not like the huge electronics warehouses that buy tens of thousands of electronic parts very inexpensively, then retails them to industry and individual consumers.  I am a small business.  I have the capacitors I sell manufactured to Klipsch specifications in small quantities.  I make up kits for approximately 24 different Klipsch crossover networks.  When you buy a kit from me, you are getting the correct capacitors made to Klipsch specifications.  These capacitors maintain the intended design of the original networks.  Your speaker will perform and sound as designed by Klipsch.  I don't understand what all the fuss is about regarding the service I provide.  If you don't feel that my kits are worth the price or don't believe what Roy has stated concerning capacitors, then you obviously don't get it.  The whole purpose of this service is to keep the vintage Klipsch speakers operating as PWK intended.  I think my service does just that and at a very affordable price.     

[Curious_George]

7 hours ago, Crankysoldermeister said:

 

Crites, me and Al have been building for almost 20 years.

 

And again, people who mod know the mods aren't "Klipsch approved", and they don't care.

I concur.

 

My 1999 C5 Corvette has mods and they are not factory approved, but it runs like a bat out of hell and is way more fun to drive than when I first bought it used. 

 

A lot of people like a "base product" but want to take it to the next level. In some cases, there is not another level. 

[JEM]

10 minutes ago, captainbeefheart said:

 

Can you elaborate on the details of said specifications?

 

It's rare for an electronics company to have a specific capacitor made for them, typically they find one from the millions to choose from that will fit the desired properties.

 

I don't have a horse in the race, I don't  build or sell crossovers. Just curious why Klipsch needed something they couldn't find from the many products already available.

Really?  These capacitors are made to Klipsch specifications just like Klipsch does for their current  networks.  I don't understand why you find that rare.  Can you imagine how many capacitors a factory would have to have on hand at any given time with all the various materials, tolerances and voltages let alone capacitance values needed?  If you think these capacitors are sitting in a bin waiting for an order you are completely mistaken.  They are made to order.      

[001]

3 hours ago, JEM said:

Why do my capacitor kits cost more than other brands?  I am sure you are aware of the current inflation, manufacturing and transportation costs.  I'm not like the huge electronics warehouses that buy tens of thousands of electronic parts very inexpensively, then retails them to industry and individual consumers.  I am a small business.  I have the capacitors I sell manufactured to Klipsch specifications in small quantities.  I make up kits for approximately 24 different Klipsch crossover networks.  When you buy a kit from me, you are getting the correct capacitors made to Klipsch specifications.  These capacitors maintain the intended design of the original networks.  Your speaker will perform and sound as designed by Klipsch.  I don't understand what all the fuss is about regarding the service I provide.  If you don't feel that my kits are worth the price or don't believe what Roy has stated concerning capacitors, then you obviously don't get it.  The whole purpose of this service is to keep the vintage Klipsch speakers operating as PWK intended.  I think my service does just that and at a very affordable price.     

hi, thanks for chiming in.  of course im aware of current state of the economy, it affects all businesses small & large.  i dont buy the caps i use from one of those large warehouse places,  i buy from a relatively small company & am able to buy small quantities of most common values of PP or PE caps for a fraction of the cost.  my question about the price was more related to details on the caps quality compared to other brands, not just inflation.  most people want to know some details about a product to make a decision.   

 

i understand your caps are correct capacitors made to Klipsch specifications.  These capacitors maintain the intended design of the original networks.  i wasnt trying to make a fuss about the service you provide, nor do i not believe what roy has said, if you read my comments i was just asking for a little more of an explanation about what this change in voltage curve means for what is actually heard. i was trying to "get it"...    

 

but i got some insight today,  i phoned a friend that knows some greek & now i have a better understanding of all this.  plus i googled it.  

   

[Chief bonehead]

11 hours ago, Crankysoldermeister said:

 

Crites, me and Al have been building for almost 20 years.

 

And again, people who mod know the mods aren't "Klipsch approved", and they don't care.

So what’s the problem dean? Klipsch cares. And I’m sick of hearing about crites, and al and any other unapproved network modifier on the KLIPSCH forum. And for those boneheads that insisted on just coming to Klipsch forum and bragging here about them, I have two things for you. Go to their website and brag there. And two, if anyone insists on being a bonehead and still posts on the Klipsch forum about them, you risk on being put on moderated posts. And I don’t care if you leave the forum. 

[Chief bonehead]

and to certain members that are on their last leg in this forum, you will be banned. 

[Deang]

Hi Roy, I'm too tired to wade back through the posts. There was something about why some hadn't used Klipsch branded capacitors and I said that being able to get these parts was a relatively recent thing. Randy said it's been two years, but what is two years compared to the almost 20 years some of us have been here, doing what we do because people had nowhere else to turn. A lot of work was done before those capacitors became available. That was all I meant.

 

As for mods, it's just the truth that some people like to modify their stuff, and they aren't much worried about what Klipsch thinks when they do it.  

 

When you asked me to stop calling my builds "upgrades" and to call them "mods", I did what you asked. You have said many times you don't care about the mods, just don't call them upgrades or Klipsch spec. I have respected that, so I don't understand why you're mad. I do think a mod or different network is required when someone starts yanking out tweeters, horns, etc.

 

There is no problem with me. I feel like I've been a voice of reason in this thread.

[Deang]

As a layperson, it just makes sense to me that if a part measures different, it's going to behave different in the circuit. There is more but I have to get up in three hours.

[michaelwjones]

6 hours ago, Crankysoldermeister said:

As a layperson, it just makes sense to me that if a part measures different, it's going to behave different in the circuit. 

 

As a friend of my mine once simply said: Different isn't the same.

[billybob]

20 hours ago, SonicSeeker said:

Still very good.

My impression is that they sound to me to be clearer, more spacious and easier to listen to when I turn them up a little.

Very detailed.

Thanks!

[captainbeefheart]

Since foil caps need much thicker film layers, 5uM thickness compared to a metalized type of .05uM thickness they are going to be much larger in size. So it's certainly possible there is a difference in many regards to the properties of each. You'll get much more of the dielectric properties from a foil type since the layers are much thicker. I'll need to run a linearity check between a metalized type and a foil type and see if the foil has a more pronounced curve from the thicker dielectric.

 

I do know when they send out product documents listing applications foil types are sold for high pulse applications. The thicker film gives them more protection between plates.

 

The question @001 was asking about "voltage curve".  Since nobody is answering you I can't speak for what is inside their minds but I can give you my thoughts. Voltage curve is vague, but I assume they are talking about transfer function. Which a capacitor alone cannot really have a transfer function as it's a two terminal device. Typically when we talk transfer functions it's a comparison between in and out (2 ports, 4 poles). The crossover network can have a transfer function and they are most likely talking about amplitude vs frequency plots. So input is swept flat through the frequency range while we compare the output to it. Plotted out you'll see a specific shape known as the transfer function. The steepness or "slope" of the network is a transfer function. Phase shift is another transfer function of the network that can be plotted out, again the phase difference between input of the network compared to the output of the network. In theory if the outputs of the network look identical to what the original networks looked like then the amplitude vs frequency transfer function has been maintained and is their goal. It's possible using different types of capacitors that have say higher ESR will effect the transfer function of the filter, the higher frequencies going to the tweeter may be attenuated more than desired and so the transfer function plotted don't match up to the original intended networks. There is probably some papers the engineers have that show these plots for each of their networks and so they try to keep them performing the same when changing part types. So long as the output plots match then they should sound the same.

 

That's at least how I took what was said.

[captainbeefheart]

My E networks in my heresy are so simple with two 2uF caps, they came with the Tecate caps from JEM when I bought them last year.

 

I think it's probably just faster to test the network as a whole circuit and plot the output vs input with the JEM caps since we know these are sanctioned to be the "Klipsch sound".  Then I can swap various 2uF caps in and plot the filter outputs and compare the differences. This should show any and all differences between types to see if the specified caps do have a unique transfer function that is desired. It will probably be best to start an entire new thread for the sake of keeping the conversation kept to capacitor replacements for crossover networks.

 

I will already state that anything other than the JEM caps will be construed as a "modification" so that's how any cap other than the Tecate types should be referred to. Even if we achieve the same transfer function as them, they will still be considered a "modification" so please keep this in mind to respect Klipsch and JEM. The only sanctioned replacement parts come through JEM but we can at least be scientific about "modifying" the networks and showing the results from said modifications. There are others besides myself that are interested in other replacement capacitors besides the ones from JEM, so a database of how the plots may change may help determine which direction some people will go. If there is an audible difference then it should be measurable in one form or another. I'm also interested in possibly showing the linearity differences between different capacitors. Those will be different measurements on the capacitors alone outside of network. It may be prudent to also measure distortion at various output powers into a load through the networks and not just view amplitude vs frequency. Distortion results may clue us into some of the sonic differences.

[jimjimbo]

12 minutes ago, captainbeefheart said:

My E networks in my heresy are so simple with two 2uF caps, they came with the Tecate caps from JEM when I bought them last year.

 

I think it's probably just faster to test the network as a whole circuit and plot the output vs input with the JEM caps since we know these are sanctioned to be the "Klipsch sound".  Then I can swap various 2uF caps in and plot the filter outputs and compare the differences. This should show any and all differences between types to see if the specified caps do have a unique transfer function that is desired. It will probably be best to start an entire new thread for the sake of keeping the conversation kept to capacitor replacements for crossover networks.

 

I will already state that anything other than the JEM caps will be construed as a "modification" so that's how any cap other than the Tecate types should be referred to. Even if we achieve the same transfer function as them, they will still be considered a "modification" so please keep this in mind to respect Klipsch and JEM. The only sanctioned replacement parts come through JEM but we can at least be scientific about "modifying" the networks and showing the results from said modifications. There are others besides myself that are interested in other replacement capacitors besides the ones from JEM, so a database of how the plots may change may help determine which direction some people will go. If there is an audible difference then it should be measurable in one form or another. I'm also interested in possibly showing the linearity differences between different capacitors. Those will be different measurements on the capacitors alone outside of network. It may be prudent to also measure distortion at various output powers into a load through the networks and not just view amplitude vs frequency. Distortion results may clue us into some of the sonic differences.

Bring it on, I can’t wait.

[001]

@captainbeefheart  thanks for the explanation,  i can follow most of that & it does help.  being im just a low level hobbyist like many on here & out there, my questions were more an attempt to get a dumbed down version or a voltage curve for dummies explanation of what we will actually hear using a common PP cap in place of the original PE caps.  its been mentioned a few times that PP caps have been used for almost 20 years & most people really like the sound from what i've read, even if its different than original by some amount.  room acoustics & speaker placement probably have a much bigger affect on the sound of a speaker than a simple cap swap. 

 

the transfer function of the complete network or how to measure it is way above my pay grade, but i appreciate you taking the time to explain it better.  all i can say is that using PP caps in my klipsch & other brands of speakers didnt make them sound bad or take away much if anything from what i hear & enjoy about klipsch speakers.   in the future i will consider trying jem or other mylar film caps, was just hoping for a little more info on all this. 

 

apologies to the OP for sidetracking the thread.        

[captainbeefheart]

1 hour ago, 001 said:

@captainbeefheart  thanks for the explanation,  i can follow most of that & it does help.  being im just a low level hobbyist like many on here & out there, my questions were more an attempt to get a dumbed down version or a voltage curve for dummies explanation of what we will actually hear using a common PP cap in place of the original PE caps.  its been mentioned a few times that PP caps have been used for almost 20 years & most people really like the sound from what i've read, even if its different than original by some amount.  room acoustics & speaker placement probably have a much bigger affect on the sound of a speaker than a simple cap swap. 

 

the transfer function of the complete network or how to measure it is way above my pay grade, but i appreciate you taking the time to explain it better.  all i can say is that using PP caps in my klipsch & other brands of speakers didnt make them sound bad or take away much if anything from what i hear & enjoy about klipsch speakers.   in the future i will consider trying jem or other mylar film caps, was just hoping for a little more info on all this. 

 

apologies to the OP for sidetracking the thread.        

 

To try and go through the different parameters of the two dielectrics, polypropylene vs polyester and how it may relate to sonics in a speaker balance/crossver network would take quite a bit of time and it would be quite technical.

 

For now I'll post a basic reference table of the properties between different film capacitors. You can then go ahead and research each parameter and how it may effect performance. Or at least narrow down some questions you may have. Hope this helps at least  show some of the differences between them.

[captainbeefheart]

Just quickly I'd say loss factor is one of the major differences that could effect the transfer function of the network.

 

This is possibly why some may consider the polypropylene caps as brighter. Losses, especially at high treble frequencies will be greater with the polyester. So amplitude out of the network could be higher with the polypropylene caps, especially at higher frequencies where reactance is reduced and losses across the ESR will dominate impedance.