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Removing crossovers Chorus I ?


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^^^ What he said.^^^  Getting familiar with the Klipsch sound over the years, realized my LaScala had absolutely no low bass, and very loud forward midrange.  Not what I was hoping for when I bought into the lively dynamic promise of super efficient horn loaded speakers.

 

After researching and attempting mods on my Heresy crossover, have come to realize a correction of the overly hot midrange goes a long way towards taming the sound.  I believe Fletcher Munson would approve....

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19 hours ago, Crankysoldermeister said:

Most of your questions have been answered, just not to your satisfaction. 

 

 

I don't remember it that way. What most people used to do was complain about how the midrange was too bright. Enter the ALK Universal. This allowed people to dial it down without having to deal with changing parts. Al used the nice caps because people wanted them, but he always thought it was extravagant waste. Others just knocked 3dB off of the midrange by dropping down a tap and changing the capacitor value. Not everyone liked that forward midrange. Now, when you knock it back, you've created some space you can move around in and using a very low ESR capacitor isn't that big of a deal -- though all of this does change what Klipsch intended.

 

After I bought my Klipschorns and started modding them, I built a lot of different networks with a lot of different parts. I didn't like the GE cans and I definitely didn't like the Sonicaps when I tried them. Even after adjusting for the brightness, I found the sound thin and two dimensional. At some point I tried Jensen paper in oils, and stayed there, well, I think until I sold them. I did a lot of Jensen builds back then. 

 

Most people can't afford to try a lot of different networks. They pick one and tend to stick with it, and most aren't nearly as critical as someone like me. People will generally prefer ANYTHING new to the sound of a 40 year old failing network. 

 

its not a satisfaction issue, i haven't seen any answers to the questions.  you said they were answered on one of those past threads too & i asked for a link to the answers or where these questions have been addressed, didnt get any reply.  also asked chief when he quoted me on one of those threads & said he'd try to answer... i said thank you & posted a shortened version of the questions, didnt get any reply & have only seen the ambiguous "it will change the voltage curve" on older threads.  the silence was pretty clear so i gave up. 

 

the positive crites reviews & comments ive read are mostly for the extended heritage models or KGs, KLFs etc, but many heritage models also got crites/sonicap caps, from what ive read over the years on here or other forums or FB groups was mostly positive or they didnt hear any change at all.  i understand knocking the mid back ~3db offsets changes in ESR, but the comments i see are not doing that, vast majority of people are very happy with crites provided caps regardless of models.  some members here or people out there even use basic dayton PP caps & are very happy with the results/sound on all kinds of models even the pro KP's.  

 

ive never tried sonicaps but have heard a set of fortes with them, not being able to compare to anything, i thought they sounded great, & i owned stock fortes at the time that also sounded good.  the majority of others arent hearing this difference in sound using PP caps.

 

i agree most people cant afford nor have a desire to try different networks or caps,  also agree that most people aren't as critical as someone like yourself that has been building crossovers for decades.. or an engineer that might see a miniscule difference with super sensitive test equipment.  its kinda like speaker wire or power cords, most people will never be able to tell the difference, so if you cant hear it, is it really that big of a deal?

 

 

 

    

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10 minutes ago, 001 said:

the positive crites reviews & comments ive read are mostly for the extended heritage models or KGs, KLFs etc, but many heritage models also got crites/sonicap caps, from what ive read over the years on here or other forums or FB groups was mostly positive or they didnt hear any change at all.

ive never tried sonicaps but have heard a set of fortes with them, not being able to compare to anything, i thought they sounded great, & i owned stock fortes at the time that also sounded good.  the majority of others arent hearing this difference in sound using PP caps.   

 

 I've had a number of Chorus II crossovers rebuilt by Crites over the years even bought the drop in replacements. I noticed a difference in sound each time, they got brighter and clearer sounding, was under the impression this was because the old caps were failing and rolling off the high end so I just wasn't used to hearing them as they were supposed to sound. I would be curious to try the JEM caps if I ever have another set rebuilt-- it would be really nice to get that extra clarity without the added brightness.

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20 minutes ago, 001 said:

It's kinda like speaker wire or power cords, most people will never be able to tell the difference, so if you can't hear it, is it really that big of a deal?

 

It's never a big deal until it is.  Like most every other new idea or mod I've stumbled across, was very skeptical at first, then begrudingly gave it a try to see what all the fuss was about, then regretted not trying earlier.

 

Following is a short list of things I've had to modify my thinking about:  Tube amps, Analog always, MP3s, dynamic range expanders, caps, caps, and more caps, crossover changes, variable L-pads, power line conditioning, and every single wire in my system, including power cords for my amps.

 

Your mileage may vary....

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1 hour ago, jjptkd said:

 

 I've had a number of Chorus II crossovers rebuilt by Crites over the years even bought the drop in replacements. I noticed a difference in sound each time, they got brighter and clearer sounding, was under the impression this was because the old caps were failing and rolling off the high end so I just wasn't used to hearing them as they were supposed to sound. I would be curious to try the JEM caps if I ever have another set rebuilt-- it would be really nice to get that extra clarity without the added brightness.

 

to most people, brighter & more so clearer is an improvement.  but too bright is not good.  

 

ive said it before & will say it again, i have no dog in this fight, im open to learning new things & would love to have these cap questions answered in terms that the average hobbyist can understand.  i post these comments/questions on threads that have usually ran their course but the subject comes up, might be best to start a new thread so anyone willing or capable can address them?   

 

i would also be curious to hear jem caps compared to PP caps, i guess the only option thus far is to buy jem (or another PE cap) & compare them for myself... 

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22 hours ago, Racer X said:

 

It's never a big deal until it is.  Like most every other new idea or mod I've stumbled across, was very skeptical at first, then begrudingly gave it a try to see what all the fuss was about, then regretted not trying earlier.

 

Following is a short list of things I've had to modify my thinking about:  Tube amps, Analog always, MP3s, dynamic range expanders, caps, caps, and more caps, crossover changes, variable L-pads, power line conditioning, and every single wire in my system, including power cords for my amps.

 

Your mileage may vary....

 

agreed.  i havent changed as many things as you mentioned, mainly because using average cables, wires & even just good ol mid-fi solid state gear has always sounded very good to me at my budget.  i could buy expensive things or tube amps etc, but for mostly rock & roll or modern alt rock & listening louder than the average guy with good strong bass, from what ive heard the average tube amp isnt the best for that, or at least not a budget friendly one, & i cant talk myself into buying a tube amp that costs thousands of dollars then pay hundreds of dollars for speaker wire or RCA cables etc that i probably cant pick out on a blind A-B test.  ive heard many high dollar systems using fancy wires at friends or audio stores that didnt sound any better than what i have here, some were noticeably worse.   

 

for the power cords or power line conditioning etc, im sure theres some improvement to be had with a conditioner, but paying hundreds of dollars for a power cord when the house has standard 12-14awg romax wire doesnt make much sense... & again, what little improvement in sound, or not,  is just not worth the price to me.  same for caps so far, i dont see (or hear) any benefit to paying $60 for a 3uf sonicap vs a dayton or erse etc for a few bucks a piece,  im guessing that applies to jem PE caps too that are like $10ea vs another brand PE cap that costs .25-.50 & could possibly be of better quality. 

 

mileage does vary with these things, but i try to keep things in perspective & always question the overpriced hype that can happen in the audio world.   

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Haven't heard JEMs, Tecate, save the recent LaScala AL5 demo, and believe the caps are holding the speaker back considerably, Chief Bonehead's preferences notwithstanding.

 

If you really want to step out into the wild side, try expensive paper in oil caps, or the very inexpensive Russian MBGO-2 paper in oil caps.  You really owe it to yourself to see what all the fuss is about....

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1 hour ago, 001 said:

For the power cords or power line conditioning etc, I'm sure there's some improvement to be had with a conditioner, but paying hundreds of dollars for a power cord when the house has standard 12-14 awg Romex wire doesn't make much sense.

 

No worries, and I always wondered about the power cords, just changed them as an abundance of caution.  Then I started rolling my own cords with cheap plugs, not expensive at all.  Very happy with just general purpose 6 x 22 ga = 14 ga solid core copper wire.  Then one day I repurposed similar 6 x 22 ga silver plated copper wire with Teflon insulation into very same amp cords.  The difference was not subtle:  The dynamic character, bloom of the amps was transformed.  Went further and also upgraded the ground wire on same cords and things got better yet again.

 

I have no idea if others can see this or hear this, and no agenda to sell wires.  Change comes from within, not without.

 

As for power line conditioning, I have easily been able to demo the difference to several different people, one a musician so you know he had no audio ear, just a musical one.  Two immediately went out and bought the same power line conditioner.  Patience will reward those looking for a nice price, but recently noticed prices for most gear is trending upwards.

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3 hours ago, 001 said:

as someone like yourself that has been building crossovers for decades.. or an engineer that might see a miniscule difference with super sensitive test equipment.  its kinda like speaker wire or power cords, most people will never be able to tell the difference, so if you cant hear it, is it really that big of a deal?


So which is it? Capacitors sound different and you can easily hear it, or the difference is like power cords and wire which differences are largely imagined? I personally don’t see a valid comparison between different capacitor types and wire. 
 

Voltage relates to transfer function and amplitude response. When Roy says it changes the voltage curves, he’s not being “ambiguous”. 

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Caps can be all over the place, sometimes similar, most times different.

 

Wire is more subtle, but pretty sure disparate differences in size and type of wire can be easily heard.  Kind of easy to compare various speaker wires to see for yourself if you want.

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yeah , we all knew that   from Day 1 ..JEM and Klipsch capacitors  are great products  

 

the klipsch capacitors have the right specs  ,  JEM/Klipsch  capacitors in klipsch  Crossovers  sound  better than  brand new Aftermarket  crossovers using Sonicaps and brand new Autoformers    , now that 's one hell of a busted myth  in my book  .

 

 

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19 hours ago, Crankysoldermeister said:


So which is it? Capacitors sound different and you can easily hear it, or the difference is like power cords and wire which differences are largely imagined? I personally don’t see a valid comparison between different capacitor types and wire. 
 

Voltage relates to transfer function and amplitude response. When Roy says it changes the voltage curves, he’s not being “ambiguous”. 

 

which is it?? never claimed i could easily hear cap differences, sorry if it came across like that.  for the few new caps ive compared i didnt hear a major difference, the difference i heard was on 25+ year old stock caps vs budget PP caps.  i mentioned i've had original chorus2 & forte/2 & others that sounded fine, didnt feel a need to replace them.  but on a couple other klipsch ive had the caps were clearly "bad" because the speakers sounded like crap, dull muffled mid/tweets,  i asked for others to confirm tweet/mid ohm readings to know the drivers werent bad before i replaced the caps.  changed to budget PP caps that instantly fixed the problem & to me they sounded slightly better than original chorus 2 i had at the time on brief comparisons.  placebo? maybe. but same room same system switched on A/B channels.  were the caps in the originals that sounded ok on their way out of spec?  i will never know that, but i liked what i heard on the recapped ones & didnt notice any overly brightness then or today 5 years later. 

 

wasnt comparing wire types to capacitors, it was a hypothetical question.  most people including PWK say wire is wire & lamp cord is all thats needed,  ive had all kinds of mid range wires over the years, 16awg RCA walmart type, monster cable 12awg (for longer runs) some other brands of 10awg for car audio high power subs i had & many other average brands that i have used over the years on different systems,  never heard any noticeable differences.  the hypothetical questions was if you cant hear the slight difference of voltage curve from a PP cap to a PE cap, which the average person probably cant or at least not reliably, then is this voltage curve really that big of a deal to the average person with some fortes & a mid-fi receiver/integrated?  im not talking crazy expensive networks or K-horns with upgraded mids & tweets etc. 

 

just saying "it will change the voltage curve" without any further explanation or details of what that means for what we will hear is kind of ambiguous,  so is, "some people just dont get it?"  you said yourself you need a decoder ring to understand those comments.  is it really too much to ask for an explanation on what that means?  apparently so.    

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6 minutes ago, 001 said:

just saying "it will change the voltage curve" without any further explanation or details of what that means for what we will hear is kind of ambiguous

 

You should see what he does to me.

 

Google is your friend.

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31 minutes ago, Crankysoldermeister said:

 

You should see what he does to me.

 

Google is your friend.

 i have seen most of the back & forth comments...  ive also seen your FB page comments about things like this & some on this forum which i agree 100% with... probably best i dont repeat them here.  sounds like maybe you've changed your tune on some of that recently?  

 

i have tried googling some capacitor/crossover info,  some is helpful but most is like ive said, its all greek to the average guy.  just like trying to explain internal combustion engines or any type of mechanical aspects of cars,  unless you dumb it down for people that dont have a clue its almost worthless.   

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42 minutes ago, Racer X said:

Um, why would you change to budget PP caps when JEM will sell you the factory authorized replacemant caps ?

 

um, because jem wasnt available until just recently & everyone raved about crites prior to that, even mr randy has said crites are great caps/crossovers before jem came out,  but those comments have probably been edited or lost in the 60k+ posts...   

 

being on a budget & for middle of the chain klipsch speakers i bought used, crites was too expensive then & especially now... a 3uf sonicap is like $60 direct from sonicraft! daytons, erse & others have pretty much stayed the same price, maybe a couple dollars more, crites also now offers daytons for budget minded people.  

 

& the "authorized" thing, some want an upgrade from the stock sound or to use an alternative thats priced better.  one of my questions was comparing jem to other same type PE caps... why are jem so much more expensive (ive seen $40-60 for a pair of fortes that are just 4 film caps & 2 lytics),  all other PE caps are less than $1ea & are likely the same quality, possibly better.  ive asked for some basic details on that or comparison to other PE caps,  but i understand klipsch probably isnt going to comment on that one.     

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