Curious_George Posted August 29, 2022 Share Posted August 29, 2022 In a previous life, I developed electronic products and worked around home amp and speakers guys too. I'm sure each competent speaker company has a certain way of developing speakers, but in general, I would lightly assume that the same scientific method is followed, for the most part, at each company. Usually, loud speakers (loud speaker meaning a complete system, not just a driver or speaker) are designed to measure flat, in an anechoic chamber. This design goal was established long ago and usually means that each frequency is being reproduced at an equal level so the loud speaker can accurately reproduce a sound or series of sounds. The speakers that were developed by these guys were not at the same level as Klipsch speakers, but what I would classify as mid-end to higher mid-end. When a loud speaker reached the crossover phase, a lot of time and effort went into "voicing" the speaker with various types of capacitors, chokes and resistors. The final design took quite awhile in most cases, then a BOM was made to document the crossover network. If any component was changed, it would probably change the frequency response, impedance or sound of the crossover. When the factory wanted to change a part, due to end of life (EOL) or some other supply chain issue, the speaker guys would request at least 20 or 30 samples of the part to do testing on. Once testing was done and they were satisifed with the new part, they would give it their blessing. Sometimes many different part types had to be gone through to find a suitable substitute. My point to all this is that I can see Klipsch's and Roy's point of view about changing parts. The loud speaker is designed as a system and any change could affect it in a negative manner. One center channel speaker long ago, I think it may have been an NHT, was designed to sit on top of a console TV before flat screens were so ubiqitous, anyway, it was found that a speaker sitting on the set-top needed to be equalized, so they built that EQ into the crossover so it would sound correct sitting on top of the TV. A huge part of the way speakers sound is also room interaction, but they are still designed to be flat in a chamber. If anybody wants to talk about caps or crossovers here, by my guest. Post away, but keep it civil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimbo Posted August 29, 2022 Share Posted August 29, 2022 Groundhog day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curious_George Posted August 29, 2022 Author Share Posted August 29, 2022 3 minutes ago, jimjimbo said: Groundhog day. It is good to know you have not blocked me Jumbo. I actually had a question for you, but didn't think you'd play along. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimbo Posted August 29, 2022 Share Posted August 29, 2022 Go ahead, ask away Georgette. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captainbeefheart Posted August 30, 2022 Share Posted August 30, 2022 Everyone get your popcorn ready 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curious_George Posted August 30, 2022 Author Share Posted August 30, 2022 44 minutes ago, jimjimbo said: Go ahead, ask away Georgette. PM sent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimbo Posted August 30, 2022 Share Posted August 30, 2022 10 minutes ago, captainbeefheart said: Everyone get your popcorn ready The popcorn is already stale… too late, you missed it… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curious_George Posted August 30, 2022 Author Share Posted August 30, 2022 It’s going to be a long show, we need pretzels or bar mix, they’ll last a bit longer before getting stale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racer X Posted August 30, 2022 Share Posted August 30, 2022 Wow, with prelims like this, anxiously awaiting the opening acts and headliners.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racer X Posted August 30, 2022 Share Posted August 30, 2022 Also, I've heard it said that those that like to play loud prefer steeper slopes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted August 30, 2022 Share Posted August 30, 2022 I think... there is a difference between manufacturing/marketing a new product for mass or niche sales, and participating in a Hobby. I also think that 'tinkering' is inherently part of ANY hobby... whether it is in Audio or toy trains. Tinkering builds emotional investment and pride in a Hobby one partakes in. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted August 30, 2022 Share Posted August 30, 2022 9 hours ago, Schu said: I think... there is a difference between manufacturing/marketing a new product for mass or niche sales, and participating in a Hobby. I also think that 'tinkering' is inherently part of ANY hobby... whether it is in Audio or toy trains. Tinkering builds emotional investment and pride in a Hobby one partakes in. Wise word. Fully applicable here. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimbo Posted August 30, 2022 Share Posted August 30, 2022 13 hours ago, Curious_George said: change could affect it in a negative manner. But it could also affect it in a positive manner. Unfortunately, a good bit of discussion within this subject is now strictly verboten, because the mere mention of the many other suppliers of parts or services has become "tiring". Seems to me that this "policy" greatly diminishes the potential for constructive conversation. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted August 30, 2022 Share Posted August 30, 2022 Working backwards from the Room volume, aspect ratios, speaker position within the room, room treatments, bass cabinet properties, woofer properties, midrange horns, super tweeter horns, their respecive compression drivers, back EMF, impedances at various frequencies, Amplifier Interactions, etc. Adding chokes, resistors, capacitors, auto-formers, protection devices, etc. allows for what I call "Tweakability." This the realm where, for a given 2, 3, or 4-way "vertical stack" will yield the greatest, most important variance. The basic assumption here has to begin with synergetic driver components that are low IM distortion within their operational band. Passive component tweaking will ad another layer on top of what can be varied further, where Listening is the final arbiter one you put personal taste and hearing acuity into the equation, then the arguments can begin about Right and Wrong to create the final word: Personal Choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curious_George Posted August 30, 2022 Author Share Posted August 30, 2022 11 hours ago, Racer X said: Also, I've heard it said that those that like to play loud prefer steeper slopes. Strictly speaking about passive crossovers; there are many variables that can determine what slope to use for a particular driver or network in the completed loudspeaker system. Playing a system loud places a lot of stress on all the drivers, but especially the midrange and tweeters if they are not protected from out of band frequencies adequately or amp clipping. With the Klipsch Heritage speakers, everyone seems to have their favorite version. It's all personal preference. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted August 30, 2022 Share Posted August 30, 2022 11 hours ago, Racer X said: Also, I've heard it said that those that like to play loud prefer steeper slopes. It lowers Intermodulation Distortion but messes with the Phase. As far as my memory can go, I think PWK cared very much about the first part, and not much about the second part, if that is actually true. I'm sure Roy could tell us about that better than I. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curious_George Posted August 30, 2022 Author Share Posted August 30, 2022 23 minutes ago, jimjimbo said: But it could also affect it in a positive manner. Unfortunately, a good bit of discussion within this subject is now strictly verboten, because the mere mention of the many other suppliers of parts or services has become "tiring". Seems to me that this "policy" greatly diminishes the potential for constructive conversation. True, the affect could be positive (for the end-user), depending on your goal(s). I kinda like the sound of oil seeping around my dielectric... seems to sound good and smooth. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curious_George Posted August 30, 2022 Author Share Posted August 30, 2022 Lately, I have had the urge to put "motor run" type caps in my universal networks and re-evaluate. I know this has be done before, but I'd like to try it. Currently, I have Dayton/Audyn in them now and to me they sound great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimbo Posted August 30, 2022 Share Posted August 30, 2022 5 minutes ago, Curious_George said: True, the affect could be positive (for the end-user), depending on your goal(s). But isn't what this is all about? No one can say what someone else hears, only what their own experience is and whether that is an improvement or degradation. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curious_George Posted August 30, 2022 Author Share Posted August 30, 2022 3 minutes ago, jimjimbo said: But isn't what this is all about? No one can say what someone else hears, only what their own experience is and whether that is an improvement or degradation. I agree. Everyone hears differently due to auditory senses and the shape of your ears. Some people claim to hear things I cannot. Who am I to say they can't hear it? I only know I can't. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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