KT88 Posted September 3, 2022 Share Posted September 3, 2022 Captainbeefheart, one more Q. If it works so well to connect different values in parallel and if you get approximately the same ESR values in parallel in comparison to fit one cap why are you still looking so hard for correct 13uF caps? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captainbeefheart Posted September 3, 2022 Share Posted September 3, 2022 3 minutes ago, KT88 said: Both your answers make me feel very positive, CBH. Thank you for the detailed and technically high-quality explanation of the ESR for parallel caps. Practically, both your answers in their combination mean that I can achieve the correct capacitance in sum with standard values in parallel connection. (The blessing of JEM components will follow later). It's nice when all the maths work out For a company it looks more professional and in the long run cost effective to just have a single capacitor with the correct value. But for the rest of us that want other options besides from JEM, me personally I want something closer to the original capacitors in construction which would be a film and foil not a metallized film. I'll have many more options with paralleling capacitors vs trying to find the exact non-standard value. I also have used paper and foil and metallized paper in Klipsch networks and they sound great, possibly a hair better but I don't trust my ears/brain to be that precise. Technically paper is a more linear dielectric vs polyester so maybe I am hearing less distortion but I doubt it at such low levels. I've never measured the distortion difference with them. Again I'd prefer a paper and foil in oil vs metallized paper in oil. Either direction I go with my Heresy's I won't have to worry about the 13uF and so finding 2uF in paper and foil is pretty easy. So I'm leaning towards hermetically sealed NOS Russian PIO caps made with foil. These are the types I have my eye on. The KBG types are oil paper and aluminum foil types, very high quality and were the best I have heard in Klipsch networks. https://www.ebay.com/itm/354233611504 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captainbeefheart Posted September 3, 2022 Share Posted September 3, 2022 8 minutes ago, KT88 said: Captainbeefheart, one more Q. If it works so well to connect different values in parallel and if you get approximately the same ESR values in parallel in comparison to fit one cap why are you still looking so hard for correct 13uF caps? It just looks tidier and more professional on a board. I'm at the point now where I just don't care anymore and it's just not worth waiting because it will sound the same in the end which is all that matters. Just preference to keep the same board footprint and mounting. Same reason Klipsch wants correct values, looks professional and tidier. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curious_George Posted September 3, 2022 Author Share Posted September 3, 2022 I recently procured some 2uF motor run caps that are new production so they are polypropylene / foil in oil. I also have some 7.5uF’s too which will allow me to change the tweeter section in my universal network. Interested if I’ll be able to hear a difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OO1 Posted September 3, 2022 Share Posted September 3, 2022 7 minutes ago, captainbeefheart said: Same reason Klipsch wants correct values, looks professional and tidier. Definitely . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mboxler Posted September 4, 2022 Share Posted September 4, 2022 4 hours ago, captainbeefheart said: ESR = tan / 2πfc When two caps are parallel the ESR is also in parallel If you crunch the numbers with capacitors that have the same tangent (loss angle) and you put them in parallel you'll see ESR hasn't really changed from just one single capacitor. And no there is no issue paralleling any capacitor values no matter how far apart they are in value. Tangent of say .06 for a film 8.2uF and 4.7uF vs 13uF 13uF .06 / 2*π*1000*.000013 = .7 ohms ESR 8.2uF .06 / 2*π*1000*.0000082 = 1.16 ohms ESR 4.7uF .06 / 2*π*1000*.0000047 = 2 ohms ESR Since the two ESR's are in parallel, that's 1.16 ohms and 2 ohms in parallel 1 / ((1/1.16)+(1/2)) = .73 ohms ESR I thought one had to calculate the Impedance |Z| and the Phase φ of each capacitor and then add those two results in parallel. Using a few online calculators I came up with a combined ESR of around .92 ohms doing so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captainbeefheart Posted September 4, 2022 Share Posted September 4, 2022 3 hours ago, mboxler said: I thought one had to calculate the Impedance |Z| and the Phase φ of each capacitor and then add those two results in parallel. Using a few online calculators I came up with a combined ESR of around .92 ohms doing so. For what we are doing, capacitors are relatively the same construction, same loss angle, close enough in value of capacitance to where viewing it like I am is fine. If one was say to use a 10,000uF electrolytic and paralleled it with a 1000pF ceramic then due to the "resistive" elements of the eqivalent circuit (ESR) not being technically in parallel use the impedance formula. https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/esr-with-paralleld-capacitors.347197/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted September 4, 2022 Share Posted September 4, 2022 49 minutes ago, captainbeefheart said: R_\text{effective} = {1\over 1/R_1 + 1/R_2} Obviously a satanic incantation. Sinner. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curious_George Posted September 4, 2022 Author Share Posted September 4, 2022 9 hours ago, Crankysoldermeister said: Obviously a satanic incantation. Sinner. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curious_George Posted September 7, 2022 Author Share Posted September 7, 2022 Dont see too many of these... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted September 8, 2022 Share Posted September 8, 2022 Patrician? I think those are the ones that almost made Bob cuss. The metal container was filled with tar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curious_George Posted September 8, 2022 Author Share Posted September 8, 2022 15 minutes ago, deang said: Patrician? I think those are the ones that almost made Bob cuss. The metal container was filled with tar. It's hard for me not to use expletives almost everyday... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted September 8, 2022 Share Posted September 8, 2022 I bet @henry4841never cusses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry4841 Posted September 8, 2022 Share Posted September 8, 2022 11 hours ago, deang said: I bet @henry4841never cusses. I try my best not too but.............. Some years ago I had a mouth like a sailor but now I try to be smarter than I was then. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curious_George Posted September 8, 2022 Author Share Posted September 8, 2022 5 hours ago, henry4841 said: I try my best not too but.............. Some years ago I had a mouth like a sailor but now I try to be smarter than I was then. A "sailor" can be a bit much, however, I have found that someone from New York or New York/Italian, is more refined... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry4841 Posted September 8, 2022 Share Posted September 8, 2022 5 minutes ago, Curious_George said: A "sailor" can be a bit much, however, I have found that someone from New York or New York/Italian, is a more refined... Ever watch the movie 'A Christmas Story." A professor in foul language is the language the boy used talking about his father. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted September 8, 2022 Share Posted September 8, 2022 there is a study I can site that concludes that the idea of Colorful language being the bastion of the uneducated is resoundingly false... goddamn it. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted September 9, 2022 Share Posted September 9, 2022 12 hours ago, Curious_George said: A "sailor" can be a bit much, however, I have found that someone from New York or New York/Italian, is more refined... I don't think so... I knew an IT guy from NY. had a DEC VAX in his basement. Came down to visit the guv'mint contractor I worked for. Boss sent me to his attys offices to work on their computers. He sent the VAX guy with me. He used quite inappropriate speech in front of all the ladies in the office. I was embarrassed. We were also moving into new offices. And he convinced my boss that rj45 connectors would never catch on and were unreliable. I had to run 10 baseT coax through the building. Not a happy time in my life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted September 9, 2022 Share Posted September 9, 2022 16 minutes ago, Marvel said: And he convinced my boss that rj45 connectors would never catch on and were unreliable. The power of harsh language. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curious_George Posted September 9, 2022 Author Share Posted September 9, 2022 And not getting a joke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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