Crossover Capacitors and Crossovers In General

[captainbeefheart]

Let me word it a little differently.

 

Say someone sells some old heritage speakers where the capacitors have degraded badly effecting the sound. This will paint Klipsch speakers in a much more negative light than any fresh capacitors installed into the networks that meet the specific values.

 

To me the capacitor thing is very subtle, I hardly see it as a game changer for your average person as they will never know the difference or hear it, they just care if music is playing and it sounds good enough. With old parts nobody wins but not everyone is going have the money to send the networks off to the licensed repair facility and have them repaired, they are far more likely to search the web, end up here and change the parts themselves since it's quite easy to do. This brings a lot of fun and I think better results to keeping these speakers alive and running well. It's mostly the design of the circuit not the brand make of passives that make it the way it is. The latter will make very slight differences but as I already said, any fresh caps are better than old dried up dead ones, yes even electrolytics.

[Curious_George]

There are only a handful of manufacturers that make capacitors anyway. If you knew all the brands that were made in 4 factories you would die laughing. Just like there are only a few who make the laminations for transformers. 

[Deang]

3 minutes ago, Curious_George said:

There are only a handful of manufacturers that make capacitors anyway. If you knew all the brands that were made in 4 factories you would die laughing. Just like there are only a few who make the laminations for transformers. 

 

Four in the U.S. There are many others. All build and wind to OEM specifications. 

[Deang]

7 minutes ago, captainbeefheart said:

With old parts nobody wins but not everyone is going have the money to send the networks off to the licensed repair facility and have them repaired, they are far more likely to search the web, end up here and change the parts themselves since it's quite easy to do.

 

With their 15 watt iron, the wrong solder, no heat sinks, and TA-DA!

 

Uhg.

 

I do mostly agree with you. 

[captainbeefheart]

3 minutes ago, Curious_George said:

There are only a handful of manufacturers that make capacitors anyway. If you knew all the brands that were made in 4 factories you would die laughing. Just like there are only a few who make the laminations for transformers. 

 

Exactly.

 

Here is my stance.

 

I completely agree that Roy just wants the Klipsch speakers to sound their best, or at least how they intended to and I don't blame him. My goal is to make a list of capacitors that will achieve the same results as what they intend. We all know there will be some people that will choose a component for whatever reasons regardless of any information they are given but I think a "sanctioned" list of parts that keep the same transfer function as intended will help everyone. It helps Klipsch keep their speakers sounding how they want them and it keeps owners happy by keeping their speakers going as long as possible. Many people pick these up from someone selling them and they want them to be the best they can be, a lot of people will totally use a part that is deemed acceptable to keep the original intended sound, I know I would. The best part is they don't have to pay an engineer to waste time finding parts that work in their networks as intended, I'll do it for free to keep the Klipsch sound alive.

 

The tricky thing is people don't hear the same. I have tried electrolytics, paper, polypropylene, and polyester in these networks and without critical listening the differences were very subtle. To me polypropylene seemed to be a little edgy with the treble, but someone that has attenuated hearing in the upper frequency range might welcome less losses  up there and choose a polypropylene. To me the most natural sounding were paper and polyester, the paper sounded maybe a smidge "cleaner" but I chalked that one up to psychological effects. If I go back and forth on something in my mind I just declare it not worth worrying about.

 

So I think what I want is actually the same as what Klipsch wants, to find correct parts that work as intended in their designs. But, if my measurements show differences with certain types then someone might feel they will like that better for their ears and preference. It's all about cutting through the BS and getting some hard data to work with instead of just talk.

[captainbeefheart]

4 minutes ago, Crankysoldermeister said:

 

With their 15 watt iron, the wrong solder, no heat sinks, and TA-DA!

 

Uhg.

 

I do mostly agree with you. 

 

Hey I see far too many posts of people trying to fix their amps that haven't a clue what they are doing, but no amount of how wrong they are going to do it will change their minds so it's best to just help them instead of letting them destroy something nice.

 

Of course it's better to send things off to the professionals, after all it's what they do and you'll get the best results that way. I have seen people use plumbers solder to make electronic repairs and other horror stories. As you mentioned the 15 watt iron that takes way too long to heat the joint up all while destroying the component they are installing. You want fast heat into the joint, if the joint is too close to the part add a heatsink to keep heat out of the part. I cringe a lot but I also know they aren't going to send their gear to me or anyone.

[billybob]

23 minutes ago, captainbeefheart said:

 

I won't buck the rules but just curious to why we can't name parts. Klipsch doesn't make capacitors so I don't see why they would worry about mentioning brands.

 

Guys like to tinker and the discussion of swapping around parts with the heritage line brings a lot of attention to the name Klipsch. If they start policing this I don't see it as in their best interest since the buzz around the speakers won't be as large. I think that's part of the reason they are so popular, the large boards and layout make it easy for a novice to tweak the networks. I don't think this paints Klipsch as deficient in any way, I mean look at all the car people that like to make their car "theirs" by tweaking them but it makes their customers into loyalists. Take that away and people feel like they are in a police state which nobody likes.

 

I'm not complaining, I'll adhere to the rules but I'm just trying put myself in their shoes and see why this is an issue.

Yes, not the *Chief so only he could say. As an observer from afar, could not possibly say. Can say that gentleman is a man of few words. Explaination

can only come from him, if so chooses to elaborate more.

Thanks!

 

 

[Deang]

I've been in contact with several people who have recapped with the Tecate polyesters from JEM. They like them. No complaints. So, I think it's more than possible that better film quality and construction may make this metalized capacitor a better sounding part than it used to be. Lead attachments too, which used to be pressed in using a conductive paste, are now spot welded after an end spray is applied. 

 

I very much feel like at this point, it's just easier to use the part Klipsch recommends.

[captainbeefheart]

8 minutes ago, billybob said:

Yes, not the *Chief so only he could say. As an observer from afar, could not possibly say. Can say that gentleman is a man of few words. Explaination

can only come from him, if so chooses to elaborate more.

Thanks!

 

 

 

I can totally relate. For example I build someone an amp that uses a specific power tube and the person ends up installing a tube that gives say less power at higher amounts of distortion that the circuit wasn't optimized for. Half of me thinks this will make my amp not as good as it could be sort of making me look like I don't know what I'm doing but the other half says well it's his now and he can do what he likes and if he likes the way it sounds now that's all that matters. If it gets shown to other people with the wrong tubes I'm certain they will tell their story about what it came with and what he did by changing the tubes etc... so it gets me off the hook so to say. I'd just explain to anyone that purchased it second hand that those weren't the intended tubes and explain the differences and let the new owner decide what to do. Who am I to tell someone that they shouldn't like extra distortion or whatever. I aim to please and if that pleases them then so be it.

 

I also will freely admit, I just like to be a giant nerd. The capacitor thing has been beaten to death will no real measured data so it's something right up my ally. Look what we found with the tweeter protection diodes, people claimed to hear a difference with them out of circuit so I did some measurements and clearly showed that the diodes start to begin their conduction before 5.1v, this is common and how diodes work. Unfortunately they start to add distortion below the 2 watt protection limit. There was a clear increase in harmonic distortion between 1-2 watts compared to the circuit without the diodes.

[Deang]

There is actually a ton of data on capacitors, it's just that nobody understands it, lol.

[captainbeefheart]

3 minutes ago, Crankysoldermeister said:

I've been in contact with several people who have recapped with the Tecate polyesters from JEM. They like them. No complaints. So, I think it's more than possible that better film quality and construction may make this metalized capacitor a better sounding part than it used to be. Lead attachments too, which used to be pressed in using a conductive paste, are now spot welded after an end spray is applied. 

 

I very much feel like it's just easier to just use the part Klipsch recommends at this point. 

 

It could very well be the construction of the flat pack and how they layer the film. I have a nice visual of different construction methods. I think the better metalized films have opposite plates staggered to either end of the package and then the leads and plates are pooled together with a weld.

 

I'll post the image if I can find it.

[Curious_George]

48 minutes ago, Crankysoldermeister said:

 

With their 15 watt iron, the wrong solder, no heat sinks, and TA-DA!

 

Uhg.

 

I do mostly agree with you. 

You mean that plumbing solder I used when I was 13 years old was the wrong stuff to use when I started to tinker?

[Deang]

Yeah, 60/40 is the worst. It's goes through a slushy state as it's cooling -- better not breath on it or bump the work.

[Curious_George]

3 minutes ago, Crankysoldermeister said:

Yeah, 60/40 is the worst. It's goes through a slushy state as it's cooling -- better not breath on it or bump the work.

Actually, I don't care for eutectic solder. My favorite solder is Kester 44 60/40, 1mm. 

 

Funny how even solder can be a choice. 

[captainbeefheart]

Here I found it for anyone interested in construction of film caps. I also added a reference of properties for various dielectrics.

[Deang]

6 minutes ago, Curious_George said:

Actually, I don't care for eutectic solder. My favorite solder is Kester 44 60/40, 1mm. 

 

Funny how even solder can be a choice. 

 

I will start a thread, lol.

[captainbeefheart]

Plumbers solder is acid based flux which cleans the metal piping. This is the main issue with using it for electrical work. Electrical solder is rosin core solder.

 

I also use Kester, I have different types including 60/40 which works good, it has a lower melting point. Just don't use the acid flux with plumbers solder, bad stuff.

[Curious_George]

1 minute ago, captainbeefheart said:

Plumbers solder is acid based flux which cleans the metal piping. This is the main issue with using it for electrical work. Electrical solder is rosin core solder.

 

I also use Kester, I have different types including 60/40 which works good, it has a lower melting point. Just don't use the acid flux with plumbers solder, bad stuff.

Plumbing solder was a joke Cappy! 

[jimjimbo]

2 hours ago, Crankysoldermeister said:

I was hoping this was the Captain's dedicated thread for measurements. We've already had a thousand threads like this one and they always end badly. I predict you'll all be banned by the end of the week.

No, this was George's thread.  

[Deang]

George seems okay. You okay George or do you want your thread back.