captainbeefheart Posted September 1, 2022 Share Posted September 1, 2022 10 minutes ago, Crankysoldermeister said: Acoustic output? Uh, no. You know what, you are correct, I just noticed he moves the tap down another peg which makes sense because as I showed without moving it down it's actually hotter with the changes. But what I did show is it's not the resistor that's causing the decreased output at mid-horn. I'll figure out what is the output with the different tap compared to stock network. Thanks for your short but accurate response since it made me go back and look Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captainbeefheart Posted September 1, 2022 Share Posted September 1, 2022 Looks like it's about -1.5db lower than the stock network at 1kHz so yes with his networks the mid-horn has a reduced acoustic output, but as I mentioned this is not from the resistor, it's from the auto-former tap change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted September 1, 2022 Share Posted September 1, 2022 I was wondering if you read through the thread that @mikebse2a3 linked to on the previous page? In it, are comments from Kerry Geist who used to be with Klipsch, and is now Chief Engineer for KLH. The design has a useful feature that some like. Sonically, I still prefer the AA. 9 pages and we have one plot, lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curious_George Posted September 1, 2022 Author Share Posted September 1, 2022 4 minutes ago, Crankysoldermeister said: I was wondering if you read through the thread that @mikebse2a3 linked to on the previous page? In it, are comments from Kerry Geist who used to be with Klipsch, and is now Chief Engineer for KLH. The design has a useful feature that some like. Sonically, I still prefer the AA. 9 pages and we have one plot, lol. Some of those plots Bob C. use to post look like they were from 1935. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted September 1, 2022 Share Posted September 1, 2022 They were. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curious_George Posted September 1, 2022 Author Share Posted September 1, 2022 This may be suicide but here goes... The video posted documents replacing the old oil type capacitors with new JEM metallized film caps in a LaScala. Ok, no big deal. But here is the rub... we all know that the old oil type caps have different specifications (i.e.; ESR, DA, DF, moisture absorbtion, etc) than metallized film. So how can a metallized film be a direct replacement for an oil type and still be "in spec"? Logic would dictate that the "original sound" of the speaker will be different with the metallized film cap. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted September 1, 2022 Share Posted September 1, 2022 1 minute ago, Curious_George said: we all know that the old oil type caps have different specifications (i.e.; ESR, DA, DF ... Do we. I mean, they were were polyesters. Does anyone even make an oil filled polyester type anymore? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curious_George Posted September 1, 2022 Author Share Posted September 1, 2022 18 minutes ago, Crankysoldermeister said: Do we. I mean, they were were polyesters. Does anyone even make an oil filled polyester type anymore? The physical construction is not the same (not just shape and look), which means the characteristics cannot be identical. I believe all the "motor run" type caps nowadays are polypropylene, but I could be mistaken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curious_George Posted September 1, 2022 Author Share Posted September 1, 2022 6 minutes ago, Curious_George said: The physical construction is not the same (not just shape and look), which means the characteristics cannot be identical. I believe all the "motor run" type caps nowadays are polypropylene, but I could be mistaken. Here is an interesting paper on motor run caps. CDE-Motor-Run-Capacitors.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted September 1, 2022 Share Posted September 1, 2022 You’re kind of asking the wrong guy. Like I said to someone else less than an hour ago - I’m done making assumptions. I’ve just spent the last two days working with a vendor to make sure they use the right steel for their laminations when they build this next series of autotransformers. Now, it seems really odd to me that Klipsch would care about a detail like that, but not care if the polyester caps they choose don’t produce the results they are looking for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curious_George Posted September 1, 2022 Author Share Posted September 1, 2022 6 minutes ago, Crankysoldermeister said: You’re kind of asking the wrong guy. Like I said to someone else less than an hour ago - I’m done making assumptions. I’ve just spent the last two days working with a vendor to make sure they use the right steel for their laminations when they build this next series of autotransformers. Now, it seems really odd to me that Klipsch would care about a detail like that, but not care if the polyester caps they choose don’t produce the results they are looking for. I don't know all the details about your autoformer fiasco, but it sounds like another vendor is in order... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted September 1, 2022 Share Posted September 1, 2022 There is no autotransformer “fiasco”. How did you pull that from that post? Just curious, George. 🙂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curious_George Posted September 1, 2022 Author Share Posted September 1, 2022 6 minutes ago, Crankysoldermeister said: There is no autotransformer “fiasco”. How did you pull that form that post? Just curious, George. 🙂 "spent two days working with a vendor to ensure they use the right steel in their laminations" Sounds like a vendor should know what type of steel they need to use. I figured there cannot be too many steel lamination choices; M6, Z11, amorphous (which I doubt you are using). And for an autoformer, M6 should be more than adequate. Is there anything special about this next series you want to share? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted September 1, 2022 Share Posted September 1, 2022 There are quite a few and they also come in different thicknesses. Some are grain oriented and some are not. All of these differences, well, make a difference. I’m on a verbal NDA now and I think that is all I can really say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curious_George Posted September 1, 2022 Author Share Posted September 1, 2022 Ok, I understand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curious_George Posted September 1, 2022 Author Share Posted September 1, 2022 14 minutes ago, Crankysoldermeister said: There are quite a few and they also come in different thicknesses. Some are grain oriented and some are not. All of these differences, well, make a difference. I’m on a verbal NDA now and I think that is all I can really say. M6/29 ga is pretty standard and looks like what is used in a T2A. CRGO steel is the only game for audio applications... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captainbeefheart Posted September 2, 2022 Share Posted September 2, 2022 5 hours ago, Curious_George said: But here is the rub... we all know that the old oil type caps have different specifications (i.e.; ESR, DA, DF, moisture absorbtion, etc) than metallized film. So how can a metallized film be a direct replacement for an oil type and still be "in spec"? Logic would dictate that the "original sound" of the speaker will be different with the metallized film cap. With Polyester/foil the film thickness is much thicker, 5uM compared to .05uM. That alone will give them far different properties. I mean literally the physical size and construction between the two are very different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipsch Employees Chief bonehead Posted September 2, 2022 Klipsch Employees Share Posted September 2, 2022 4 hours ago, Curious_George said: "spent two days working with a vendor to ensure they use the right steel in their laminations" Sounds like a vendor should know what type of steel they need to use. I figured there cannot be too many steel lamination choices; M6, Z11, amorphous (which I doubt you are using). And for an autoformer, M6 should be more than adequate. Is there anything special about this next series you want to share? Because George like to stir it up. No bueno. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captainbeefheart Posted September 2, 2022 Share Posted September 2, 2022 6 hours ago, Crankysoldermeister said: I was wondering if you read through the thread that @mikebse2a3 linked to on the previous page? In it, are comments from Kerry Geist who used to be with Klipsch, and is now Chief Engineer for KLH. I'll have not read it but will peruse through it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipsch Employees Chief bonehead Posted September 2, 2022 Klipsch Employees Share Posted September 2, 2022 8 hours ago, Crankysoldermeister said: Swamping with an autotransformer - Greg Timbers of JBL, but Al did come up with the idea independently. Actually we have networks that used this resistor. But it was to help control the impedance response so that we could use a series resistor as a “volume control”. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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