Which amps maximize the bass output from Heresy IV's

[Tiffiny]

I am driving my Heresy IV's with the PS Audio sprout. I am new to hifi and thought that would be a safe start. I am very pleased with the sound considering what it is but the bass is anemic and the midrange I think could be thicker but I think it is fairly detailed. What amps do you recommend for getting as much articulate bass as the Heresy's are capable of and more mid range than I am experiencing currently? I am currently using a Rythmik f12 sub but I feel that I am relying on the sub too much and I am looking for a more balanced bass.

[the real Duke Spinner]

It's not the Amplifier

[OO1]

7 hours ago, Tiffiny said:

I am driving my Heresy IV's with the PS Audio sprout. 

a Great Amp -Preamp  for the Heresy IV is the Yamaha A-S series    , my guess is  this PS Audio amp  is really not up to the task of  powering the Heresy IV , why ?  well  the H IV  is pretty close to a Monitor with exceptional HF and decent bass  from a 12 inch woofer,  also ,  the Heresy IV  HF  drivers are used In the much larger Cornwall IV    ......if you cant hear  it ,  the problem is definitely not the speakers   

[garyrc]

FIRST, try this: put each speaker in a room corner, push the speaker all the way into the corner, touching each wall, or within 1/16 inch of each wall, but aimed toward the main listening position.  Corner placement should add about 3 dB to 6 dB to the bass, depending on the former location.  To avoid early reflections from the nearby walls, put an absorber on each wall about where a yardstick would touch the wall if you held it flat against the front of speaker.  If the absorber is 2 feet wide, that should be enough.  Like this:

If this doesn't give you enough bass,

SECOND, try another amplifier with two features: 1) More power (at least 100 watts, both channels operating, at low distortion, probably 0.05% THD or better [like, 0.01% which is what you have now], 20 to 20,000Hz) and 2) tone controls.  Don't listen to those who say avoid tone controls!  A Bass Control turned up a bit can really help!

 

The bass control probably won't affect the subwoofer, so turn the subwoofer gain knob up.  Try crossing over to the subwoofer at 60 Hz and 80 Hz, and go with what sounds the best with bass heavy material.

 

 

 

[Tiffiny]

Thank you Gary, you are very helpful

[Tiffiny]

12 hours ago, OO1 said:

a Great Amp -Preamp  for the Heresy IV is the Yamaha A-S series    , my guess is  this PS Audio amp  is really not up to the task of  powering the Heresy IV , why ?  well  the H IV  is pretty close to a Monitor with exceptional HF and decent bass  from a 12 inch woofer,  also ,  the Heresy IV  HF  drivers are used In the much larger Cornwall IV    ......if you cant hear  it ,  the problem is definitely not the speakers   

Thank you 

[Islander]

Sure, a better/more expensive amplifier can give you clearer and stronger sound, but before changing anything, let’s see if your system is performing to its best ability as it is.

 

Tiffiny, are your speakers on the floor, on their risers?  Although they look like large bookshelf speakers, they are actually floorstanders.  Second, they don’t have the deep bass of their big brothers, the Cornwalls, because of the Iron Law.  This law states that of the three desirable speaker characteristics, high sensitivity, deep bass response, and small cabinet size, you can have any two, but you can never have all three.  This is not in the law books, it’s due to the physics of speaker design.

 

Klipsch chose high sensitivity and small cabinet size.  This gives you a speaker that can produce very high volume with little power, which also helps in the retrieval of fine details in the music.  As well, the cabinet is of a size that makes it far easier to place in your room than Cornwalls or La Scalas.

 

Accordingly, to hear the lowest two or three octaves of your music, you need the help of a subwoofer.  This is also true of the vast majority of speakers on the market, unless you’re ready to spend $30,000 or more.

 

How did you dial in your subwoofer?  Did you do the “sub crawl” in order to find the best place in the room for the sub?  Did you get a helper so you could get the phase just right?  Setting the phase requires your helper to turn the knob on your sub between 0 degrees and 180 degrees while you listen (or use an SPL meter) from your listening position.  When it’s loudest, you’ve got it right.  It might be a good idea to write the best setting on a piece of paper and tape it beside the knob, in case you forget and disturb the knob accidentally.

 

As for the volume level of your sub, this calls for a test CD/DVD and a sound level (SPL) meter.  Those meters cost under $100, or you can probably rent one from your local music store or DJ supply shop.  Some musical instrument shops have a Pro section where they have SPL meters and other gear for rent.  Okay, you’re ready to go.  You’ll need to make a chart for this one.  As the tones go down from whatever the top frequency on the disc is, likely 200 Hz or so, make a note of the volume level.  The goal is to get an even volume level from the top point (when you’re hearing only the speaker) all the way to the lowest frequency (when you’re hearing only the sub).  The testing does not need to be done at high volume.  65-70 dB is loud enough.

 

To get the smoothest response, you’ll need to set both the sub’s volume level and its hi-cut, the upper limit to its response.  Some people make the mistake of setting the sub’s hi-cut to match the speaker’s specified lowest bass limit, but it’s not that clearcut.  This is because the speaker’s response starts to taper off above that point.  By then, it’s down 3 dB.  In the same way, the sub’s hi-cut is not a brick wall.  The sound starts to taper off wherever you set the hi-cut, but it goes a bit beyond that.

 

Accordingly, you’ll want to set the sub’s hi-cut a bit above the speaker’s bottom limit, so you have some overlap.  This will give the smoothest handover between the speakers and the sub, with minimal dips and peaks.  That’s your goal.  After you’ve done a few runs down the frequency scale, you’ll notice that the response is not perfectly smooth.  There will be some dips and peaks, no matter what you do.  All that’s possible is to minimize them.

 

In the old days, in the 20th century, the cure would be to use an equalizer with 10 or 12 frequency sliders for each channel, but with the cleaner/clearer sounding amplifiers we have today, those old EQs muddy up the sound, so hardly anybody uses them anymore.  However, some subs do have a room correction feature that can adjust their response to make it fairly even, in spite of the effects of the room.  That’s a big help.

 

Yes, some of the unevenness of the bass response of your speakers and sub is due to the size and shape of your room, and how your system interacts with it.  You can only do so much.  Get your system sounding its best, then sit back and enjoy your favourite music.

 

Also, welcome to the Forum, Tiffiny!

[Tiffiny]

3 hours ago, Islander said:

Sure, a better/more expensive amplifier can give you clearer and stronger sound, but before changing anything, let’s see if your system is performing to its best ability as it is.

 

Tiffiny, are your speakers on the floor, on their risers?  Although they look like large bookshelf speakers, they are actually floorstanders.  Second, they don’t have the deep bass of their big brothers, the Cornwalls, because of the Iron Law.  This law states that of the three desirable speaker characteristics, high sensitivity, deep bass response, and small cabinet size, you can have any two, but you can never have all three.  This is not in the law books, it’s due to the physics of speaker design.

 

Klipsch chose high sensitivity and small cabinet size.  This gives you a speaker that can produce very high volume with little power, which also helps in the retrieval of fine details in the music.  As well, the cabinet is of a size that makes it far easier to place in your room than Cornwalls or La Scalas.

 

Accordingly, to hear the lowest two or three octaves of your music, you need the help of a subwoofer.  This is also true of the vast majority of speakers on the market, unless you’re ready to spend $30,000 or more.

 

How did you dial in your subwoofer?  Did you do the “sub crawl” in order to find the best place in the room for the sub?  Did you get a helper so you could get the phase just right?  Setting the phase requires your helper to turn the knob on your sub between 0 degrees and 180 degrees while you listen (or use an SPL meter) from your listening position.  When it’s loudest, you’ve got it right.  It might be a good idea to write the best setting on a piece of paper and tape it beside the knob, in case you forget and disturb the knob accidentally.

 

As for the volume level of your sub, this calls for a test CD/DVD and a sound level (SPL) meter.  Those meters cost under $100, or you can probably rent one from your local music store or DJ supply shop.  Some musical instrument shops have a Pro section where they have SPL meters and other gear for rent.  Okay, you’re ready to go.  You’ll need to make a chart for this one.  As the tones go down from whatever the top frequency on the disc is, likely 200 Hz or so, make a note of the volume level.  The goal is to get an even volume level from the top point (when you’re hearing only the speaker) all the way to the lowest frequency (when you’re hearing only the sub).  The testing does not need to be done at high volume.  65-70 dB is loud enough.

 

To get the smoothest response, you’ll need to set both the sub’s volume level and its hi-cut, the upper limit to its response.  Some people make the mistake of setting the sub’s hi-cut to match the speaker’s specified lowest bass limit, but it’s not that clearcut.  This is because the speaker’s response starts to taper off above that point.  By then, it’s down 3 dB.  In the same way, the sub’s hi-cut is not a brick wall.  The sound starts to taper off wherever you set the hi-cut, but it goes a bit beyond that.

 

Accordingly, you’ll want to set the sub’s hi-cut a bit above the speaker’s bottom limit, so you have some overlap.  This will give the smoothest handover between the speakers and the sub, with minimal dips and peaks.  That’s your goal.  After you’ve done a few runs down the frequency scale, you’ll notice that the response is not perfectly smooth.  There will be some dips and peaks, no matter what you do.  All that’s possible is to minimize them.

 

In the old days, in the 20th century, the cure would be to use an equalizer with 10 or 12 frequency sliders for each channel, but with the cleaner/clearer sounding amplifiers we have today, those old EQs muddy up the sound, so hardly anybody uses them anymore.  However, some subs do have a room correction feature that can adjust their response to make it fairly even, in spite of the effects of the room.  That’s a big help.

 

Yes, some of the unevenness of the bass response of your speakers and sub is due to the size and shape of your room, and how your system interacts with it.  You can only do so much.  Get your system sounding its best, then sit back and enjoy your favourite music.

 

Also, welcome to the Forum, Tiffiny!

Thank you for the comprehensive information. This may sound as though I am greedy but with my sub turned on, I am really pleased. It is just if I turn the sub off, I feel like the heresy could do better, and my 50 watt amp is likely under powering..?? That being said, I would like to find the most synergistic upgrade for amplification. I did do the room crawl. As far as getting the phase right, I did it alone over the course of a few months LOL, a lot of trial and error but currently with the sub on, my set-up sounds fairly well blended on most music. The sub does not draw attention to itself on most music. The minute I turn the sub off, it is like what happened... Even the mids get thin.

[Tiffiny]

Also, I have them on stands because the sound stage was low. I will definitely try the spl metering test to ensure the sub is optimized.

[Khornukopia]

37 minutes ago, Tiffiny said:

with my sub turned on, I am really pleased.

You have a complete system. Good enough, unless you just want to buy another amplifier because shopping for audio gear is so much fun. 😊 

[82 Cornwalls]

49 minutes ago, Tiffiny said:

Thank you for the comprehensive information. This may sound as though I am greedy but with my sub turned on, I am really pleased. It is just if I turn the sub off, I feel like the heresy could do better, and my 50 watt amp is likely under powering..?? That being said, I would like to find the most synergistic upgrade for amplification. I did do the room crawl. As far as getting the phase right, I did it alone over the course of a few months LOL, a lot of trial and error but currently with the sub on, my set-up sounds fairly well blended on most music. The sub does not draw attention to itself on most music. The minute I turn the sub off, it is like what happened... Even the mids get thin.

 

You are describing what is supposed to happen with a subwoofer (or two 😉) and speakers that can use the help. The only way you could have a chance to like the Heresy IVs without a subwoofer, is to get rid of the subwoofer and give it time to get used to the sound without.

Under powered? Are you running a night club?

 

Agree with Khornukopia above (typing as he was posting).

Edited August 31, 2022 by 82 Cornwalls

[garyrc]

58 minutes ago, Tiffiny said:

Also, I have them on stands because the sound stage was low. I will definitely try the spl metering test to ensure the sub is optimized.

 

Speaker stands that allow a cavity below the speaker (i.e., a speaker on "legs") reduce bass, but this may or may not be a problem when using a subwoofer, depending on where the crossover to the sub is.  The IVs are probably good to about 50 Hz -- when they get the extra bass loading from the floor -- and a somewhat higher than 50 Hz when they are not near the floor and are on stands with a cavity underneath.  Although a piano goes down to 27.5 Hz, music is almost never written for the lowest keys, and your subwoofer will take care of that  anyway.  Except for the contrabassoon and pipe organ, most instruments of the orchestra stay above about 40 Hz.   If the sub's crossover point is set at the typical 80 Hz, I'd think there would be no problem, but bass deterioration due to cavities has been reported (with other speakers) as high as 100 Hz, and you probably don't want your subwoofer/Heresy crossover point that high.  Some people have closed up the cavity by tastefully enclosing it with veneered and stained plywood (not the really thin stuff; probably 1/2" or 3/4").  Even with closed stands, the Heresy still is deprived of some loading from the extent of the floor all around it, when it is on the floor, as designed.  What about all those speakers we see on bookshelves?  1) Most are pretty close to the wall, and get some loading there, and from the books, etc. 2) The better true bookshelf speakers may be "voiced" to have slightly boosted bass compared to the Heresy IV, which is often on the floor.  I agree with you that the soundstage is pretty low when on the floor, so If I had them they would be on fully enclosed stands, with a subwoofer crossed over a bit high (decided upon by ear), and the sub would be turned up slightly (ear, again), and the Heresies used with an integrated amp, or a preamp, or a receiver with a Bass Control to boost the Heresys' own bass a bit, which may fill out the mids a little.

 

[Islander]

Good work, Tiffiny!  It sounds like you really did your homework.  When subwoofers first became widely available, some hi-fi snobs looked down their noses at them, saying they were only needed to reproduce explosions in movies, but not suitable for “real” music listening.  However, as they listened more, they found that the subs helped the sound all the way into the midrange.  Not only that; with some recordings, like acoustic music recorded with all the musicians at the same time, the subwoofer could provide low-level cues as to the size and even the shape of the recording space.

 

As I mentioned in my previous post, very few affordable speakers do a good job of reproducing the bottom few octaves of music very well.  This has become more noticeable with some of the new synth-based music, as well as classic organ music, like that by Saint-Saens.  Among more modern music, Billie Eilish’s first CD, When We All Fall Asleep, Where Do We Go? uses lots of deep bass, and it would not be half as enjoyable to listen to if you didn’t have a subwoofer.  There’s no reason to feel greedy or guilty because you enjoy what the sub can do.  It’s become an integral part of modern music systems.

 

Okay, that was the important part.  This last bit is just a little history lesson about subs.

 

So why were subs not seen as essential for a long time?  Well, many “authoritative” audio writers liked hearing their favourite music on LPs, often very old ones, maybe even 78s.  What’s the difference?  The difference is that vinyl records have trouble with deep bass parts, so they’re rolled off.  If the deep bass parts were recorded at full volume, it would be difficult to make the record in the first place, because the squiggles that the groove needed to make for loud and deep bass take up a lot of space on the recording surface, so that’s a problem.  Then, during playback, accurately loud and deep music would call for such a highly modulated (very very squiggly) groove that it could kick the stylus right out of the groove.  That’s a problem, too, of course.

 

As time went by, and more music was available on CD (and sometimes only on CD), the lower octaves were finally free from the recording and playback constraints of the vinyl groove, and then the deficiencies of most speakers became very obvious.  It’s always something, right?  However, now we have the subwoofer, and they’re getting better all the time, with more power, more accuracy, and smaller size, where DSP allows them to apparently violate the Iron Law.

 

BTW, two subs are better than one, for a few reasons.  First, more power, but that’s not the most important one.  Next, less distortion, because each driver only has to move half as far to produce the same total volume.  Still not the most important reason, which is producing an even sound field, with similar bass volume throughout the listening area.  That’s the prime benefit, but it’s only really important if you have an uneven soundfield, with bass peaks and dips all over the room, and you have guests that sit in some of those spots and notice it.

 

The good news is that you’ll probably be the only person who notices, and anyway, if you get a fairly even response at your MLP (Main Listening Position.  Some of these designations make me laugh.), that’s all you need.  Put up your feet, put up your volume, and smile.  That’s what it’s all about.

[Peter P.]

You're experiencing Heresy's and it's just the way they sound. Even with the new, ported design they still don't play as low as many lesser speakers. Heresy's have what I call "muscle" but they don't play that low. Continue to rely on your subwoofer and just play with the crossover from the sub to the Heresy's if you can.

 

From your description, to me it sounds like your subwoofer's output level is too high.

 

A different amp isn't going to change anything.

 

I don't have an answer to what you're experiencing with the midrange.

 

Finally, in my opinion your room's acoustics have a tremendous effect on your system's performance. But that's a whole 'nother subject.

 

I have Heresy II's with a subwoofer and I approve this message!

[garyrc]

1 hour ago, 82 Cornwalls said:

Under powered? Are you running a night club?

 

A little extra headroom doesn't hurt, especially if you are going to turn up a bass control.  Every 3 dB increase doubles the power need in watts.  To the degree that much of the oomph of music resides in the bass (~below 200 Hz) and low midrange (~200 Hz to maybe 600 Hz) and since many recordings attenuate the bass in order to turn up the overall volume (and compress it) to fight the industry's never ending and ill-advised "loudness war," that some of the "suits" want, but virtually all recording engineers and producers think is FUBAR (see Chris A, "The Missing Octave," and much more of his writing on this forum) I often find my bass control up 6 dB (quadruple the wattage needed in the bass).  It's true, you can hit THX's max peak power (about 100 dB through the main speakers in a typical living room (105 dB in a huge -- theater sized -- room) with Heresies at a mere 30 watts (for 1/4 second, at 13 feet away), turning up the bass to the main speakers by 6 dB may need 120 watts for that 1/4 second.  

[captainbeefheart]

If you like the deep bass, you know EDM shake the house dance music bass Heresy's and most hifi loudspeakers don't go low enough since they have only a woofer. I mean don't get me wrong most of the detail is in the woofer frequency range but the frequencies you feel are below a woofer, hence the sub-woofer. I'd say you are off to a great start with the Heresy Loudspeakers and the sub-woofers. Many of us that have huge loudspeakers still use sub-woofers.

 

It takes a ton of energy and lots of driver displacement to get excellent bass so it's optimal to split it up anyway with loudspeakers and sub-woofers being separate. The Sub-woofer can require gobs of power, at least for me 250 watts is good but you can go up to over 1000 watts with the sub woofer unit. I recommend Class D sub-woofer amps since they are light weight and very efficient but whatever you have keep it if you like it since, well....you already have them lol. This allows you to focus higher quality amplifiers for your Heresy Loudspeakers where all the magic is happening.

 

I'd say you do not need to change amplifier that's driving the Heresy's if you like how everything sounds with the subs and Heresy's together.

 

There are some loudspeakers that can do it all but I find that very few and far between. I personally like keeping them separate.

[82 Cornwalls]

2 hours ago, garyrc said:

 

A little extra headroom doesn't hurt, especially if you are going to turn up a bass control.  Every 3 dB increase doubles the power need in watts.   

 

I try to use the appropriate tool for the job and advise others to do the same. The OP can continue to use a subwoofer (and maybe add another) with her Sprout (no tone controls) and you can use the bass control if you so desire.

 

Edited September 1, 2022 by 82 Cornwalls

[captainbeefheart]

Oh silly me I forgot an important detail.

 

I found optimal performance having the Sub-woofer high frequency roll-off point at the same frequency as the Heresy low frequency roll-off. Once you dial in where the Sub's attenuated point (depending on the slope) meets where the Heresy's attenuation point it sounds more natural.

 

Also make certain you have the phase of the sub-woofers match the phase of your amplifier powering the Heresy's.

[Bubo]

Tiffany

I may have missed it

but what kind of music are you listening to ?

 

Some photos of your room and gear would also be helpful.

 

FWIW IMHO Klipsch has the best reproduction of the human voice

no speaker is better at everything than every other speaker

Heresys on end tables puts the mids at ear level, and the woofer slightly below

yielding the best human voice.

 

With the Heresy's and LaScalas a tight articulated sub does fill a void at the bottom

 

Get a good 100W ch class AB used surround receiver, and use the auto correct and auto EQ for the room

$100 should get you a Pioneer Elite or good Yamaha. 10 years old for a unit is fine, I like the THX rated Pioneer Elites for the application.

 

Gary has been a cornucopia of good advice above.

 

My two cents

[Chief bonehead]

An amp with high damping factor.