mikebse2a3 Posted October 7, 2022 Share Posted October 7, 2022 6 hours ago, babadono said: Absorption or diffusion on front wall? Or both? Anyone got an opinion? (now there's a loaded question) If this is going to be used as a 2-channel stereo system then I would caution the over use of absorption because it’s easy to unnaturally alter the decay of sound especially in the upper midrange and high frequencies and basically it begins to sound like an anechoic chamber (a very unpleasant place for music when you experience it.) in the upper midrange and high frequencies. This can be very fatiguing and some frequencies can almost become piercing. Diffusion can be a mixed bag as well depending on the type of diffusers you choose. Overall I have come to prefer poly type diffusers versus ones like the RPG QRD Type or RPG Skyline primitive root diffusers because all can work well when used properly but the RPG Type if not placed optimally can sometimes create some audible effects that can lead to a fatigue effect revealed over extended listening. The Poly Diffusers seem to be the most forgiving of placement and rarely cause undesirable audible effects in my experience. In my current listening room the only places I ultimately found beneficial and acceptable for the Skyline diffusers was on the front wall and as a ceiling cloud above the listening position. In a smaller room the Skyline worked well on the side wall first reflection points but only after I slightly offset their positions so that left and right didn’t send symmetrical reflective signals to the center listening position. Visually the Skyline diffusers might seem impressive to some when on the front wall I actually prefer a less dramatic and more visually neutral and relaxing front wall where it becomes easier to visually imagine the imaging in recordings and ultimately listening in a dimly lit or dark room best of all. I consider the ASC Tube Trap design to offer the least negative and most positive and easiest to place and one of the most important features of all is their adjustability for absorption/versus diffusion above approximately 400Hz which I find extremely valuable achieving the proper liveness and decay of the upper midrange and high frequencies. All ASC products have upper frequency absorption control to prevent unnatural over absorption unless ordered/specified differently. Whatever you choose for absorption I strongly suggest it feature some form of upper frequency absorption control/limitation if possible to prevent the unnatural anechoic effect in the mid/high frequencies. Have you identified the best balanced/smoothest locations for your loudspeakers for the frequency range below 200Hz..? This is step one IMHO and the foundation to begin the acoustical design of the listening room/loudspeaker integration. miketn 2 Examples of Skyline Diffusers positions that worked for me but again ultimately I chose them in the Cloud Position which also allowed me to shift the floor to ceiling room mode at the listening position to a more favorable frequency. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted October 10, 2022 Share Posted October 10, 2022 On 10/6/2022 at 11:18 AM, babadono said: Absorption or diffusion on front wall? Or both? Anyone got an opinion? (now there's a loaded question) Definitely Diffusion. in any application I have experienced, absorption on the front wall generally KILLED the liveliness sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babadono Posted October 10, 2022 Author Share Posted October 10, 2022 Question to both of you @mikebse2a3 and @Schu...can't liveness be dialed back in with reverb(or other effect). Or are you guys too purist to consider such? Oh and should not the first reflection point be treated with absorption no matter what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted October 11, 2022 Share Posted October 11, 2022 12 hours ago, babadono said: Question to both of you @mikebse2a3 and @Schu...can't liveness be dialed back in with reverb(or other effect). Or are you guys too purist to consider such? I wouldn’t consider myself as a purist especially considering the almost total lack of standardized practices in recording and playback as evident in the real world we live and listen in. In my experience reverb is experienced much differently than what I consider liveness and room spaciousness that can happen in a room designed for good 2ch reproduction. Some 2ch to Multi-Channel Playback conversion effects programs might bring some liveness and spaciousness simulation back to acoustically dead listening rooms and this is why multi-channel home theater rooms are often found to be treated with much more absorption because the liveness/spaciousness are in the surround channels programming. 12 hours ago, babadono said: Oh and should not the first reflection point be treated with absorption no matter what? Not based on my experiences. The strength and timing of the first reflection points and the channel’s they are associated with are factors to be considered along with the polar response of the loudspeakers and what works best could be better left untreated, redirected, or diffused instead of absorbed in some situations. I mentioned the Polar Response of the loudspeaker as a variable because when you so often see Room Treatments as suggested by many companies they are most often using wide-dispersion loudspeakers and that often wouldn’t be the appropriate treatment methods for dipole loudspeakers or controlled directivity horn loudspeakers in my experiences. miketn 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted October 11, 2022 Share Posted October 11, 2022 @babadono Here you can see how I’m using the Studio Traps at First Reflection points and they give me the ability to choose between absorption or diffusion as well as the ability to disperse/redirect the reflections. This is a powerful feature that allows me to easily experiment and adjust the room acoustics for the sense of liveness I find desirable and engaging. Note: due to the loudspeakers placements and the fact they are horns with controlled directivity I am able to choose a much more HF reflective return into the room versus the standard direction that you usually see ASC recommend which is often depicted with wide dispersion direct radiator systems. I have also removed (seen stacked on the floor) some of the flat wall panel Sound Planks to adjust the overall HF absorption for a better balance of the liveness sensation. miketn 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted November 23, 2022 Share Posted November 23, 2022 On 11/16/2022 at 6:39 AM, newworld said: What is actually inside the cylinders? Could these be diy in any way? We like the adjustability without making holes in the walls because our 2 channel room is also our home theater room. Incredible rooms! While the internet is full of DIY Tube Traps I’ve yet to see any that come remotely close to the real “ASC Tube Traps” … Here is a simulation picture from ASC showing an example of construction details of the “ASC Tube Trap” and also some quoted comments from Art Noxon describing the construction. BELOW: Is quoted from Art Noxon from discussion on another forum where DIY was mentioned” ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ I see no reason a person couldn’t build regular style DIY absorption panels with some kind of stand to avoid having to hang them on the walls and for placement flexibility but of course you wouldn’t have the diffusion ability of the “ASC Tube Trap”. I would strongly suggest whatever absorption panel design you choose that a reflective type membrane functioning similar to the ASC be implemented especially if it is for a 2-ch stereo system/setup. miketn🙂 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babadono Posted December 7, 2022 Author Share Posted December 7, 2022 Well my efforts continue...baby steps... 4 bass traps and coverings for the window at first left side reflection point 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babadono Posted December 7, 2022 Author Share Posted December 7, 2022 On 11/22/2022 at 6:31 PM, mikebse2a3 said: I would strongly suggest whatever absorption panel design you choose that a reflective type membrane functioning similar to the ASC be implemented especially if it is for a 2-ch stereo system/setup. I have a slap echo because room shape/size and hardness of surfaces that I need to get control of first. I think...there I go thinking again. Also I have a limited budget. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MicroMara Posted December 8, 2022 Share Posted December 8, 2022 28 minutes ago, babadono said: I have a slap echo because room shape/size and hardness of surfaces that I need to get control of first. I think...there I go thinking again. Also I have a limited budget. The echo is maybe caused by the rear wall behind the sofa where you listen ? Everything else looks fine so far Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babadono Posted January 9, 2023 Author Share Posted January 9, 2023 Got some cylindrical diffusers for front wall and panel for first reflection from right speaker: 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OO1 Posted January 10, 2023 Share Posted January 10, 2023 For the Echo in the room , 2 wooden, insulated platforms or risers for the Jubes can help to dampen and decouple the bass section from the floor . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babadono Posted January 10, 2023 Author Share Posted January 10, 2023 Any links to data on this? The rising off the floor I mean....I do not need another project especially one of this magnitude that does nothing 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khornukopia Posted January 10, 2023 Share Posted January 10, 2023 Looking good! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khornukopia Posted January 10, 2023 Share Posted January 10, 2023 9 hours ago, OO1 said: insulated platforms or risers for the Jubes can help to dampen and decouple the bass section from the floor . Why do you recommend this for the woofer cabinets sitting on a concrete floor? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babadono Posted January 10, 2023 Author Share Posted January 10, 2023 @Chief bonehead Roy, Any validity to what Randy is suggesting? Raising Jube bass bins off floor to alleviate reflections? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babadono Posted January 10, 2023 Author Share Posted January 10, 2023 57 minutes ago, Khornukopia said: Looking good! Sounding pretty good also Thanks Roy @Chief bonehead and PWK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babadono Posted January 27, 2023 Author Share Posted January 27, 2023 put up some ceiling clouds...first reflection points are pretty much covered now i think. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 @babadono Looks really nice…!!!! How is the imaging…? How does the vocals from recordings sound..? How does your and others peoples voices sound to you when you’re in your listening location...? Does the room sound natural and comfortable to have conversations in without seeming over damped (kind of like a movie theater can sound)..? Do any of the higher frequencies feel like they are beaming at your ears on some recordings..? miketn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 On 1/10/2023 at 4:34 AM, OO1 said: For the Echo in the room , 2 wooden, insulated platforms or risers for the Jubes can help to dampen and decouple the bass section from the floor . Can’t imagine how that would be a solution for an Echo… miketn 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babadono Posted February 1, 2023 Author Share Posted February 1, 2023 @mikebse2a3 the imaging is, I hate to use the superlative, superb. But maybe I just have never had a really well set up system. The room is getting quieter and quieter as more treatments are installed of course and is starting to get spooky and non echoic. I found that one of my biggest problems was the stairwell to the up stairs. If I close the basement door it pretty much stops that echo chamber from interfering with the room. But I don't think I would have ever discovered that if I did not start treating the room because it was so echoic. But I'm good with that I think. To my way of thinking artificial reverb and/or other effects can always be added. I know purists would say no way to that but I'm not in that camp. After all we only hear what some recording engineer thought we should. What are you getting at viv a vis the high freq. beaming? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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