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surrounds with k-horn / belle fronts


jdm56
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I would like to hear what folks are using as surround speakers with heritage speakers in front. I know heresy's would probably be the obvious choice, but I think as surround speakers for music only, in my relatively small room (18.5 X 16), that they would be overkill and too directional. Not to mention the fact that they are huge (for surround) and rather pricey, too.

So, I'm wondering if SS-1's, RS-3's or RS-7's might work just fine. I'm more concerned with just reproducing natural ambience with music; not jet fly-overs or Queen's "Bohemian Rhapsody" hard-panned to the back (YUCK!!!).

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JDM, with my Klipschorn corners with a Belle in the middle, I have been using a pair of Cornwalls for Side/Surrounds and an Academy for a Rear Effects speaker. That will probably change in the next iteration which will probably see fruition later this year. If you must have a smaller, less expensive speaker, at the very least get Academy's for your Side/Surrounds.

One of the neat things about a Heritage sound system is the honesty that meets your ears. If you opt for scaled down speakers that bounce everything over about 2,500 Hz around the walls before it gets to your ears in the sweet spot... you will have negated much of the timbre matching and directionality that makes your Heritage front end so special. Your ears need to have one sound arrive first and the secondary reflections arrive a second (more or less) later to achieve a sense of directionality. Timbre matching means that each speaker must be "voiced" closely with it mates. If not, the effect is like hearing a doppler shift like a moving train coming to you and changing its pitch as it goes away. That's not cool in music or HT.

A WDST speaker has its good points in rooms that are acoustically challenged and for people who want to feel immersed in sound no matter how much ambience was programmed ... hey, if that's what floats there boat fine and dandy. But you don't find many Klispchorn owners with a Belle in the middle that go that route. PWK designed most of the Heritage line to function in harmony with his beloved Klipschorns. The LaScala was designed as a horn loaded speakr that didn't need to be in a corner. It was to go between the K-horns in his own home. His wife nixed the LaScala as being too ugly... so PWK designed a prettier LaScala and named it after his wife, Belle. The rest of the Heritage line was built to be smaller and not need a corner... but still voiced in the spirit of the Klipschorn. So, if you must chose a smaller speaker try to make it a Heritage... and failing that, go for a pair of Academy speakers... not exactly Heritage but pretty close to it in a smaller enclosure.

And if there is no other way... put in a sound sprayer... and work hard to afford a house that is more Heritage friendly. =HornEd

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I would go with Heresy's or Heresy II's if that is not feasible (size) why not KG2's or KG 2.2's or 2.5's. Two Academys at todays going rate would be much to expensive you could get a pair of Cornwalls for what you would spend on a couple of Academy's. Forte's or Forte II's would also work well if you have the room for them. Don't go too small, you will be dissapointed.

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I am using LaScalas for surrounds, but I had them already when I got the K-horns. I had RS-3's for surrounds when I had the LaScalas in front. I didn't think they sounded bad at the time, but WOW what a difference when I moved the LaScalas to the back. I agree with the others that you should use Heritage speakers. I am using Heresy's for the front center, and they would sound fine in back. I have never heard Cornwall's, but they should sound like Heresy's with more bass.

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Dang, you guys aren't making this easy for me are you?2.gif Y'all are supposed to say, "Yeah Doug, those smaller, cheaper surround speakers will work just FINE - you go for 'em."

I'm almost embarrased to admit what I'm using for surrounds right now - Realistic Minimus 77's! There. I said it and I'm glad I did (confession is good for the soul)12.gif. I am probably the only person on the planet with klipschorns in front and RatShaq 77's in the back ($40 apiece on sale!). I pulled the big ol' Infinity SM-120's (98db sens.) that I had been using out to make more room for my CD cabinets. (only my 3rd music room re-shuffle this year - another story...)

I understand all the arguments for timbre matching front to rear, but I'm just not sure I buy them. First of all, I think music should seldom ever be placed in the surround channels, other than as reflections and reverberations. I know a lot of surround titles today are being mixed with music placed hard in the back, but I will avoid these like the plague. I have never once in my life heard live music performed behind me. Shoot, even movie makers, for the most part, have enough sense not to place an on-screen musician's sound hard in the back. So, for reproducing ambience, is timbre matching important? I've never heard an echo that sounded too much like the original sound, but maybe it does sometimes.

Part of my problem is that to get the best bass in my room, I have to sit closer to the rear wall than I had originally planned, placing me closer to the surrounds, and putting the back, or center surround(s) VERY close by. So this rules out a large back surround for sure. And floor space is another problem. Right now, whatever I use for surrounds has to either go on the wall, or sit on the top shelf of my CD cabinets, which are about five feet high. I suppose I COULD put heresy's up high in the back corners, using some super heavy duty wall mounting hardware. Maybe that would be the best, if I can convince myself they won't look silly up there. 1.gif

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For most music I would agree. The only thing I have that plays all aound are music DVD's. Eagle "HFO" and Diana Krall "Live in Paris" sound great from all speakers. Movies are another story. Star Wars, Saving Private Ryan and others are unbeleivable with large speakers all around. There is no way RS-3's can compete with my LaScalas when the frequency goes low.

Another point in favor of Heresy's is the price. They are about the same as RS-3's. You could put them on a shelf also.

I still have a set of RS speakers from my first attempt at HT. I think they are out in the garage somewhere if someone is interested.

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James,

I have Khorn mains with a Belle center. I am currently using Heresy's as rear surrounds. I am only using them as the room they are currently in cannot accommodate anything bigger. My future plans are to use Khorn rears if I can get a room with the right corners. If not, then La Scalas are the next choice. I must admit, the Heresy's do sound good -- probably better than I expected considering they are being used with Khorns and a Belle. But my recommendation is to get Heresy's at the very least, if at all possible.

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There seems to be a concensus brewing here in favor of "large and in charge" surround speakers. I just don't know...it's not that I absolutely ~couldn't~ do it, but I'd have to do another big room re-do; maybe move the LP's into another room, and streamline my electronics down to the essentials, so they'd fit in a narrower cabinet. We'll see. I'll probably try the RS3 or RS7 route first...if that doesn't satisfy, I could move them to the HT, and then try heresys.

Thanks guys, for the help. If I don't like the RS set-up, I can't say you didn't try to tell me. ha

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Q-Man is my hero... and, Gary, I hope you do go there once in awhile to let the newbies know and us "No Life's" remember that given the time, place and pocket book... great things come from appropriately applied fully horn-loaded surround sound systems.

Sure, there is always a place for those who need scaled down performance to fit their digs... or for those who prefer "manicured" sound to "live" sound... why there are even a jillion Bose-O's on this planet. But, what this Forum needs is the honest, forthrightness of a Q-man. Live long and prosper... that we may no "live" excellence if only vicariously. =HornEd

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Horn Ed,

You long winded, you know what! If I didn't like you so much I wouldn't add this. I'm not as gifted with the tongue and pen as you are, and I think that some of the Forum members may think that I'm bragging. I'm a humble person, and I don't want to give a false opinion of myself. I do what I do to satisfy myself and no one elce. I'm also never satisfied, I can't stop tweaking. Look under Odds & Mods for the latest.

Anyway, click on the attachment to see my right rear stack. The bottom speaker is a home built Jensen Imperial loaded with Klipsch drivers for that all important timbre matching. It's aimed across the back of the room just behind the sweet spot. It's a little stronger and lower in the bass then the Klipschorn and is run full range. It's a back loaded bass horn but isn't as corned dependent as the K-Horn. The LaScala on top of it

is aimed more down the sides of the room towards the cheap seats. I cut it off at 60Hz. and let the sub do the rest. The stack is my version of Klipsch's WDST speakers for more envelopement.

A simple rule of thumb. What ever you use for mains, use everywhere elce. You will never be satisfied untill you do.

post-2405-13819246117638_thumb.jpg

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Once again, Q-Man, you have proven why you are my hero! You said, "Forum members may think that I'm bragging. I'm a humble person, and I don't want to give a false opinion of myself." And I said that you were honest and forthright... and that is the kind of person that doesn't brag, doesn't say that his way is the only way, and is never satisfied to get that last drop of honey from his bass horn hives.

You know, Q-Man, that I am always experimenting and building new environments. I, too, prefer to have a handle on how ambience is created so that it does not erode the benefits of timber matching and appropriate directionality. While WDST allows directionality with modestly sized woofs under about 2,000 - 2,500 Hz, everything higher is sprayed around the room negating the benefits of timbre matching by flooding one's eardrum with sounds too close together to be directional... even if directionality was the intent of the sound mixer. While stacking and offsetting Heritage class speakers will increase the perception of ambient sound but not create so many sound images that the ear cannot distinquish direction or appreciate the effort of closely voicing (timbre) one's loudspeakers.

Recognizing your leadership in the building of upscale fully horn-loaded multichannel audio is not a brag... it's just a fact that anyone can verify by reading your posts over the last couple of years. I'll grant you that you are a reluctant hero but I won't grant you that I am the only one that recognizes your "heroship"... When an outstanding Klipsch luminary hides under a self imposed bushell... its our public duty to lift the bushell of annonimity so that the honest light of bass bin knowledge fall upon the multitudes.

Q-Man, you remind me of another perfectionist who in is 87th year said, "Ancoro impero!"... Michelangelo's comment is generally translated as "I am still learning." Clearly, you haven't stopped learning... and I beg that you not turn of your light... for we who follow your lead have not stopped learning either.

I admire your humility. It reminds me of the time that I had to take the stand in a court case... and my Texas attorney was concerned that the jury would go against me because of my then deep pockets rather than for me be cause of the facts of the case. So he said, "Ed, be humble." A few hours later when my testimony and cross examination was over, I stepped down and asked my attorney if that was humble enough for him? He replied, "Ed, that was about as humble as Humble Oil. But, we won the case because the jury recognized that what I said was not puffed up or sucked down... it was the truth as near as I could tell it. And as near as I can tell it, Gary, is that the Q-Man is still my hero... now matter how long winded he may perceive me to be. =HornEd

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hi boa,

i'm still waiting for my belle to get here, (ETA: end of month!) and hoping to make a big play on kief A/V's sympathy for my long wait: the goal being to wrangle a killer deal on...something! I am currently leaning towards the Pioneer Elite DV-47Ai and the Elite VSX-45TX; I just can't swing the bucks for a '49TXi. Hopefully, in a year or two, Pioneer will have firewire ports on a sub $1500 receiver. Besides, I got no need for 100+ watts per. I'd never use'm with horns in my room. I'd like a FULL featured 7 channel receiver with 50 watts/channel of clean mos-fet power. that would be, uh, as the young'ns say...SWEEEEEET!9.gif

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boa,

an avr-305 for around $1500? nah, huh-uh, no way! ...them things got a firewire port? think i'll scurry over to their website and explore. those are nice, nice, nice but i've always considered them out of my price range.

thanks for the tip.

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jd, you're probably right. the lowest online price for a 305 is around $2k. but maybe they'd be REAL good to you at kief's. 9.gif

yes b&k do have the ieee firewire port, but no they're not yet activated because the #%&$ content producer/dvd-audio industry hasn't come out w/ that digital connection/copyright protection standard yet. 15.gif

but hopefully like you reported it may come out before b&k starts doing their upgrades in about a month or less. don't want to have to mail in that b&k 2 times in a row.

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----------------

On 1/16/2003 5:27:29 PM boa12 wrote:

yes b&k do have the ieee firewire port, but no they're not yet activated because the #%&$ content producer/dvd-audio industry hasn't come out w/ that digital connection/copyright protection standard yet.
15.gif

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boa,

and when they do get it hammered out, i'll bet we can kiss the possibility of dvd-a/sacd recorders goodbye. not that i blame them too much; a gal at work is actually hawking cloned cd's to co-workers for like, five bucks. can you believe it? i think i'll rat her out!11.gif

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