Speakers.

[trickson69]

My question is for the techs that engineer the Klipsch speakers and R&D Question.

When you design the speakers (Drivers as they are called) do you all take in account wall spacing, wires and covers?

What I mean to ask is this. Most people (as you well know) live in small arears, with kids and pets and chairs and sofas and all kinds of crap in the way, Walls on all 3-4 sides.

So, this in mind do you at R&D ever at all use that information when building a speaker?

 

When you design speakers are you designing them to be place 3-4-5-6 feet from the wall? 

If you have a room that is 10'X16' room this is not only impractical but impossible.

All this talk about how far from a wall your speakers should be seems kind of a moot point when speakers can be placed in a wall and ceiling and bookshelf speakers are placed on bookshelves (or some do).

Do you test them in bookshelves?

 

Then there is the speaker covers.

Do you design the speaker so that it sounds exactly the same when the covers are on? 

There has to be some sound loss from the cloth fabric not matter the kind of fabric used there is going to be some frequencies absorbed into that fabric and lost right? 

 

Now for cables or speaker wirers.

Do you design the speakers to be there best using say 12-14AWG speaker wire? 

Or are you designing them with costly speaker cables? 

 

There is so much fuss going about on this subject I wanted to see if I could just get some clarity is all.

NOT everyone has a room that is huge and can seat 12 in a theater. 

I have a small 10x16 foot room my speakers are 6" from the wall sound great too.

Also, I have looked at millions of speakers in my lifetime and when you really look inside them all the wire they used to connect to the post and the crossover to the speakers I shake my head and laugh at the so-called audiophile and their cables. LOOK inside a speaker box lately?  

 

 

 

Thank you for any answers you can give.

 

 

 

Edited October 1, 2022 by trickson69

[SonicSeeker]

[trickson69]

4 hours ago, SonicSeeker said:

I am not sure how to interpret this. 

I hope my questions are not stupid. 

Like why is fire hot?

I really want to know if the R&D department takes in variables when they make a speaker for home entertainment. 

This is a picture of Moss from the IT crowd eating popcorn. 

I do not get it.

 

[billybob]

Lol, yes popcorn for the main event of drama and debate.

Forum slow lately. May want to tag an employee as they do not check every thread looking to answer. Thanks!

[Racer X]

Believe it is very important to match your speaker size to your room.  But everyone has a different idea what is optimum for both.

 

As for speaker wire, I noticed there is more wire after my crossovers to my 3 ways than before crossover to amps.  So I change all wires if when I make a change.

[Tom05]

The chintz speaker wire tells us something , it indicates that if the speaker wire is large enough to carry the required current over its short distance ,then the engineer its satisfied , and that a fancy , or larger gauge wire is not necessary . I’d like to hear the answers to your questions also . Have a good day🤓

[trickson69]

2 hours ago, billybob said:

Lol, yes popcorn for the main event of drama and debate.

Forum slow lately. May want to tag an employee as they do not check every thread looking to answer. Thanks!

Not sure how to do that. I do not know of anyone that is an employee of Klipsch this is why I posted here.

 

[billybob]

 

@Trey CannonCannon 

 

[trickson69]

On 10/1/2022 at 2:20 PM, Racer X said:

Believe it is very important to match your speaker size to your room.  But everyone has a different idea what is optimum for both.

 

As for speaker wire, I noticed there is more wire after my crossovers to my 3 ways than before crossover to amps.  So I change all wires if when I make a change.

Not really talking about speaker size and room size here.

This is a speaker Research and development question. 

 

I would love to know just what kind of thought really goes into a speaker.

I mean anyone can take an empty room and test crap in.

It's when other things are added to the mix that make things interesting and it is what I believe to be the Achilles heel of all speakers. 

I mean we all know about this thing called room correction and all that stuff, right? that is the thing then, they must be making speakers in a vacuum then.

 

IF not then why all the room treatments and changing of crossovers and cables and sound dampening for speakers and such?

 

It is almost like all engineers think people have in their home are walls and nothing more. Then we the consumer have to do all the rest of the work to improve the sound of the speaker

Edited October 3, 2022 by trickson69

[billybob]

Maybe a well placed, Ask The Historian topic will have @JRH respond to your questions.

[Islander]

Most Klipsch speakers sound their best in a corner, or at least near a wall, so that “audiophile” recommendation of putting your speakers out in the room does not apply here.  The only slight exception is the Forte, which has a passive radiator on the back, so it needs to be maybe a foot from the wall behind it.

[trickson69]

3 hours ago, Islander said:

Most Klipsch speakers sound their best in a corner, or at least near a wall, so that “audiophile” recommendation of putting your speakers out in the room does not apply here.  The only slight exception is the Forte, which has a passive radiator on the back, so it needs to be maybe a foot from the wall behind it.

I agree they do sound great near a wall and in a corner, this kind of tells me two things one that Klipsch designers are designing them around the home user. 

and two that audiophiles are mostly looking for that placebo effect to fix their speaker's sound. 

8" from the wall and I swear I can push them closer, and they sound fantastic. 

[babadono]

Klipsch has 2 anechoic chambers. One each in Hope AR and Indianapolis IN. They take their measurements in one of those. Speaker engineers want to separate the speaker from the room at least to begin with. Klipsch professional theater speakers intentionally have the high frequencies dialed up to be able to penetrate from behind the movie screen.

[Deang]

There are millions of rooms, and they are all different. The only thing they have full control of is the loudspeaker. The room is your job. 

 

Using boundary reinforcement from corners and walls is a foundational principle of design for Klipsch. It offsets the falling response of the bass, and this is why they add 4dB of room gain to their sensitivity measurements. They will always choose high sensitivity over smooth response. Consider that 3dB is half power. So, when you pull your speakers out into the room, it's like giving up half of your amplifier power - and it gets worse when you start EQ'ing the bass up to make up for the bass you lost by pulling them out. You're just gobbling up power - and if you get bored you can read about power compression.

 

It doesn't take a lot to smooth them out. Deal with the early reflections on the side walls, some carpet, etc. Proper placement too. Klipsch Owners Group gets the award for some the most painful looking set ups. Toe them into the listening area and not splashing into the side walls. 

 

Grill cloth on Heritage is not acoustically transparent and is part of the voicing. Reference uses acoustically transparent fabric.

 

 

[82 Cornwalls]

3 hours ago, trickson69 said:

I agree they do sound great near a wall and in a corner, this kind of tells me two things one that Klipsch designers are designing them around the home user. 

and two that audiophiles are mostly looking for that placebo effect to fix their speaker's sound. 

 

 

This tells me one thing.

[garyrc]

4 hours ago, Islander said:

Most Klipsch speakers sound their best in a corner, or at least near a wall, so that “audiophile” recommendation of putting your speakers out in the room does not apply here.  The only slight exception is the Forte, which has a passive radiator on the back, so it needs to be maybe a foot from the wall behind it.

 

I am not a Klipsch employee, and never have been, but I've read a great deal of audio since 1959, am a fan, and blissfully live with 9 Klipsch speakers, a wonderful, music loving wife of 47 years, and a music tolerating cat. 

• Paul Klipsch recommended trying any speaker pressed into in a corner (this was before the Forte, and the RP series, etc).  He stated that it would be likely to increase the bass by 6 dB [compared to out in the room, where crazy "audiophiles" of the era, as mentioned by @Islander, would likely put their speakers].  To the degree that the greatest power demands are often in the bass, corner placement with a 100 watt ["RMS"] per channel amplifier would be equivalent to using a 400 watt per channel amplifier with the speakers out in the room.  Initially, Klipsch speakers were designed to sound good in a "typical" living room, but, as you say, all rooms are different.  Other manufactures measured in an ordinary anechoic chamber and aimed for [sort of] flat frequency response and tolerable measured distortion levels in such a chamber.   But some speakers need  a corner, because the corner is part of the design, so Paul Klipsch had an anechoic chamber built with a revolving door "corner" in it so various corner [and non-corner] speakers could be measured when in a corner.   
• One of Klipsch's goals was to have both good measurements in his special anechoic chamber, and good sound in home listening rooms.  Some articles said he  found frequency response much less important than low distortion, especially modulation distortion, which some manufacturers ignore. 
   
• Evidently, Paul felt realistic  dynamics  to be more important than holding frequency response within +/- 3dB.  Originally, he said that to get the "blood stirring" effect of a live symphony orchestra, you need occasional very brief ("instantaneous," probably 1/4 second or less) of 115 dB at your ears, because that's what he measured when recording the Arkansas Symphony.  Years later, THX found that instantaneous peaks of 100 dB (110 dB in the bass) is plenty in most home size rooms, with 105 dB (115 dB in the bass) needed in commercial cinemas and concert halls.
• The silly truth about frequency response is that a certain other company's speaker, costing over $100,000, with advertised frequency response of +/- 1 dB, 20 to 20,000Hz, was measured by a magazine at +/- 5 dB (+4/-6dB)by a magazine, in a real room.  Not that +/-5 dB is a bad figure at all, or that I trust the magazine, but that the importance of frequency response is so over emphasized that it seduces marketers.  Speaker frequency response in the real world with the availability of room treatments, Audyssey, Dirac, Trinnov, and the lovely return of tone controls, should decline, but flat response sells, where it is there or not.  See also, Down with Flat! by J. Gordon Holt, Apr 29, 1985 in Stereophile.  Some recordings have improved since he wrote that, and, for me, the moderate treble roll-off (- 5 dB at 16K) of something like Audyssey Reference removes his distortion lurking at the top objection in lesser recordings.  For wonderful recordings, like the direct-to- disc Crystal Clear recording, Sonic Fireworks, I enjoy Audyssey FLAT, with the bass turned up, as well.  Try Fanfare for the Common Man.
• Corner Placement was heavily criticized from time to time, and year after year by Consumer Reports, who said that corner placement produced the loudest, but most uneven, bass.  I have never been able to duplicate these results with any speaker.  Then Don Davis, the studio designer,  wrote a great article for Audio magazine in which he said, "Paul Klipsch's advocacy of corner placement for the past 50 years is still correct. Corner placement has the following advantages: The entire audience-coverage angle is within 90°, polar control is excellent at specular frequencies, and the best low-frequency modal response in acoustically small rooms is obtained."
• There may well be a small caveat.  Some stray midrange and treble sound may reach the front and side walls a bit too soon.  Putting some absorption on the walls where the off-axis midrange/treble might land before being reflected would probably be helpful.    
• I believe Klipsch measures their speakers with grille cloth on.  If you have pets [or kids, or unruly party guests] leave the grilles on.  Cats will sometimes eat speaker cones, especially if they have a certain (plastic like) smell.  I know that acoustically transparent fabric sounds like "clean coal," but I have my center channel behind a faux wall with AT fabric across whole wall, plus an AT projection screen that comes down in front of it.  Audyssey Flat fully compensates for this.  Audyssey Reference imposes its own curve if I select it.  Of course, I have the screen down when running Audyssey.  A slight treble control adjustment ought to make up for any filtering by the grille.

[82 Cornwalls]

Gotta love cherry picked posts.

 

Sorry I must be on the wrong forum, I'll get my coat.

Edited October 4, 2022 by 82 Cornwalls

[Deang]

I know what cherry picking is but don’t understand how it is applicable here. What do you mean?

[Coytee]

5 hours ago, deang said:

I know what cherry picking is but don’t understand how it is applicable here. What do you mean?

I too went "wha???"

[Islander]

10 hours ago, garyrc said:

 

I am not a Klipsch employee, and never have been, but I've read a great deal of audio since 1959, am a fan, and blissfully live with 9 Klipsch speakers, a wonderful, music loving wife of 47 years, and a music tolerating cat. 

• Paul Klipsch recommended trying any speaker pressed into in a corner (this was before the Forte, and the RP series, etc).  He stated that it would be likely to increase the bass by 6 dB [compared to out in the room, where crazy "audiophiles" of the era, as mentioned by @Islander, would likely put their speakers].  To the degree that the greatest power demands are often in the bass, corner placement with a 100 watt ["RMS"] per channel amplifier would be equivalent to using a 400 watt per channel amplifier with the speakers out in the room.  Initially, Klipsch speakers were designed to sound good in a "typical" living room, but, as you say, all rooms are different.  Other manufactures measured in an ordinary anechoic chamber and aimed for [sort of] flat frequency response and tolerable measured distortion levels in such a chamber.   But some speakers need  a corner, because the corner is part of the design, so Paul Klipsch had an anechoic chamber built with a revolving door "corner" in it so various corner [and non-corner] speakers could be measured when in a corner.   
• One of Klipsch's goals was to have both good measurements in his special anechoic chamber, and good sound in home listening rooms.  Some articles said he  found frequency response much less important than low distortion, especially modulation distortion, which some manufacturers ignore. 
   
• Evidently, Paul felt realistic  dynamics  to be more important than holding frequency response within +/- 3dB.  Originally, he said that to get the "blood stirring" effect of a live symphony orchestra, you need occasional very brief ("instantaneous," probably 1/4 second or less) of 115 dB at your ears, because that's what he measured when recording the Arkansas Symphony.  Years later, THX found that instantaneous peaks of 100 dB (110 dB in the bass) is plenty in most home size rooms, with 105 dB (115 dB in the bass) needed in commercial cinemas and concert halls.
• The silly truth about frequency response is that a certain other company's speaker, costing over $100,000, with advertised frequency response of +/- 1 dB, 20 to 20,000Hz, was measured by a magazine at +/- 5 dB (+4/-6dB)by a magazine, in a real room.  Not that +/-5 dB is a bad figure at all, or that I trust the magazine, but that the importance of frequency response is so over emphasized that it seduces marketers.  Speaker frequency response in the real world with the availability of room treatments, Audyssey, Dirac, Trinnov, and the lovely return of tone controls, should decline, but flat response sells, where it is there or not.  See also, Down with Flat! by J. Gordon Holt, Apr 29, 1985 in Stereophile.  Some recordings have improved since he wrote that, and, for me, the moderate treble roll-off (- 5 dB at 16K) of something like Audyssey Reference removes his distortion lurking at the top objection in lesser recordings.  For wonderful recordings, like the direct-to- disc Crystal Clear recording, Sonic Fireworks, I enjoy Audyssey FLAT, with the bass turned up, as well.  Try Fanfare for the Common Man.
• Corner Placement was heavily criticized from time to time, and year after year by Consumer Reports, who said that corner placement produced the loudest, but most uneven, bass.  I have never been able to duplicate these results with any speaker.  Then Don Davis, the studio designer,  wrote a great article for Audio magazine in which he said, "Paul Klipsch's advocacy of corner placement for the past 50 years is still correct. Corner placement has the following advantages: The entire audience-coverage angle is within 90°, polar control is excellent at specular frequencies, and the best low-frequency modal response in acoustically small rooms is obtained."
• There may well be a small caveat.  Some stray midrange and treble sound may reach the front and side walls a bit too soon.  Putting some absorption on the walls where the off-axis midrange/treble might land before being reflected would probably be helpful.    
• I believe Klipsch measures their speakers with grille cloth on.  If you have pets [or kids, or unruly party guests] leave the grilles on.  Cats will sometimes eat speaker cones, especially if they have a certain (plastic like) smell.  I know that acoustically transparent fabric sounds like "clean coal," but I have my center channel behind a faux wall with AT fabric across whole wall, plus an AT projection screen that comes down in front of it.  Audyssey Flat fully compensates for this.  Audyssey Reference imposes its own curve if I select it.  Of course, I have the screen down when running Audyssey.  A slight treble control adjustment ought to make up for any filtering by the grille.

 

The solution to early reflections is big horns, well toed-in per the Dope From Hope recommendations.  The K402 is ideal for this purpose.  With the driver axes crossing in front of the listener, very little sound spills out toward the side walls, and the area of stereo effect in the room is enlarged.

 

To trickson69:  although it may seem counterintuitive, smaller rooms need bigger horns, precisely to reduce sidewall reflections and their effects.  This is why there are quite a few Jubilee owners who have them in relatively small rooms, but enjoy great sound.