Alternatives to Paypal

[ClaudeJ1]

1 hour ago, deang said:

Agreed. I don't mind paying a little for a decent service that gives me and my customers some protection -- and F&F is always there is they're comfortable with it.

 

The problem is the ridiculous eBay selling fees. Yikes. 

No, the most ridiculous part is the BUYER has to pay State Sales TAX on used items. WTF, they even charge tax on the frikkin' SHIPPING!

[Dave A]

1 hour ago, deang said:

Agreed. I don't mind paying a little for a decent service that gives me and my customers some protection -- and F&F is always there is they're comfortable with it.

 

The problem is the ridiculous eBay selling fees. Yikes. 

I have heard this before but what is the cost of bricks and mortar? I can't have the market exposure I get through EBay in my own store and it is around a 15% overhead on EBay. Where else can I go to do things this cheap and sell as much? USPS has run up my costs more then EBay.

[Dave A]

20 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

No, the most ridiculous part is the BUYER has to pay State Sales TAX on used items. WTF, they even charge tax on the frikkin' SHIPPING!

THAT is what makes me mad if anything. Sadly if I had a web site or store I would still have to collect sales tax and then have to manage the book keeping and reporting. The days of tax free internet sales are almost gone and soon with all this fiat induced inflation I figure all on line sales will be liable. Including private individuals who sell a lawn mower worth over $600 who will then need to file 1099's on their "extra"  Craigslist or local newspaper for sale ads as income. The government needs your money more then ever now.

[gigantic]

9 minutes ago, Dave A said:

I have heard this before but what is the cost of bricks and mortar? I can't have the market exposure I get through EBay in my own store and it is around a 15% overhead on EBay. Where else can I go to do things this cheap and sell as much? USPS has run up my costs more then EBay.

Reverb is cheaper, I believe and just getting a toehold into audio. 

[RealMarkDeneen]

Like so many other unregulated and lightly regulated tech firms based on Internet technology, PayPal has morphed into a political-policing-enforcement entity that has nasty social implications. They fall into that basket of "billionaire-backed social re-engineering" firms that have already gained too much power over free-expression. These companies are flooding the zone and drowning out democratic principles and sovereign authority to regulate them. This movement is a plutocratic de facto coup over democracy. But sure, there's not much risk they will spoil an Ebay transaction.

[michaelwjones]

51 minutes ago, RealMarkDeneen said:

 They fall into that basket of "billionaire-backed social re-engineering" firms that have already gained too much power over free-expression. 

 

PayPal is a publicly traded entity. Vanguard (as in mutual funds) is the largest single shareholder. Private individuals own less than 7% of the company (less than Vanguard). In reality, they are a payment system that is morphing into banking. They own Venmo, BTW.

 

https://money.cnn.com/quote/shareholders/shareholders.html?symb=PYPL&subView=institutional

 

And how does the manner I pay for something impact "free-expression?"

 

57 minutes ago, RealMarkDeneen said:

These companies are flooding the zone...

 

When I lived in a flood zone, I bought flood insurance... from the government.

[Fish]

Is it just me or....Is anyone NOT ok with a company that has your bank info threatening speech ??? PAYPAL let slip in their latest terms that if a customer says ANYTHING they don't like, they are SOLE arbiter, anywhere they see it, they can fine YOU $2500, removed from your account . This was removed and claimed an accident after Elon and many others freaked out.

[RealMarkDeneen]

Hmmmm?

 

PayPal was founded and grown by billionaires that include Peter Thiel and Elon Musk. PayPal was pried out of Ebay ownership by the demands of billionaire Carl Icahn. PayPal is currently run by Dan Schulman, CEO who has sold hundreds of millions of dollars in PPAL stock over the past couple years. Their "founding and background" has been heavily influenced by billionaires who conceived it and grew it before it became public.

 

Secondly, PPAL has taken it upon themselves (like Google, Twitter and others) to ban people and groups from receiving payments or making donations to "unapproved entities" based on PPAL's proprietary decision making about their user agreement. Various entities have been banned by PPAL for violations of their homemade rules about "misinformation" or controversies over political views and political speech.

 

That they are a publically held company provides no protection for people being banned for political beliefs. This is much like Google deplatforming people for "wrong views".

Financial enties like banks and payment processors are in the wrong lane when they begin controlling users based on political affiliations. Being a "public company" doessn't prevent Apple, Microsoft, Google, Twitter, or hundreds of other Internet companies from making their own rules with fine print in their EULAs. And "Vanguard" has nothing to do with the EULAs these companies rely upon to manage their business.

 

Not everyone sees the dangers in this aspect of the techno-plutocracy - I understand that. 

[jjptkd]

24 minutes ago, michaelwjones said:

And how does the manner I pay for something impact "free-expression?"

 

 If you google Paypal 2500 you'll see what all the hub bub is about.

[RealMarkDeneen]

17 minutes ago, Fish said:

Is it just me or....Is anyone NOT ok with a company that has your bank info threatening speech ??? PAYPAL let slip in their latest terms that if a customer says ANYTHING they don't like, they are SOLE arbiter, anywhere they see it, they can fine YOU $2500, removed from your account . This was removed and claimed an accident after Elon and many others freaked out.

 

Thanks for mentioning their unilateral power to levy fantastic fines on users for any reason they like. I forgot that piece of their crappy business.

[michaelwjones]

9 minutes ago, jjptkd said:

 

 If you google Paypal 2500 you'll see what all the hub bub is about.

 

 

""You may not use the PayPal service for activities that … involve the sending, posting, or publication of any messages, content, or materials that, in PayPal’s sole discretion … promote misinformation.""

 

I can live with that. And I could care less if Elon "freaks out." IMHO he's not too highly wrapped anyway.

 

Everyone who does anything has a set of rules they act under. No returns without receipt; you must be this tall to ride, etc.  Its our choice who we interact with. If people have a problem with PayPal, there are other services for payment or even face to face. Most of us used money orders or checks before PP. They are still available for use.

 

I thought a free market allowed these folks to make billions. Isn't that the cornerstone of the founding of the US? Why do you think the Dutch flocked here after they landed hundreds of years ago? To make money.

[Dave A]

8 minutes ago, jjptkd said:

 

 If you google Paypal 2500 you'll see what all the hub bub is about.

Yes and exactly why I am looking for other places to go.

[michaelwjones]

Isn't what we are really complaining about is the IRS figured out we were transferring money willy nilly and a portion of that is, in reality, income? Now we either have to become good record keepers or find another manner of payments. I suggest we go back to money orders or accepting checks assuming they clear. Certainly this will take instantaneous gratification and impulse buying out of the picture, but it does offers some relief for tracking income. Of course, face to face and cash still work, too.

[Dave A]

2 minutes ago, michaelwjones said:

 

 

""You may not use the PayPal service for activities that … involve the sending, posting, or publication of any messages, content, or materials that, in PayPal’s sole discretion … promote misinformation.""

 

I can live with that. And I could care less if Elon "freaks out." IMHO he's not too highly wrapped anyway.

 

Everyone who does anything has a set of rules they act under. No returns without receipt; you must be this tall to ride, etc.  Its our choice who we interact with. If people have a problem with PayPal, there are other services for payment or even face to face. Most of us used money orders or checks before PP. They are still available for use.

 

I thought a free market allowed these folks to make billions. Isn't that the cornerstone of the founding of the US? Why do you thing the Dutch flocked here after they landed hundreds of years ago? To make money.

Yes and the first amendment means I don't have to agree to their policing of my thoughts because a few in authority there don't like them.They are finding out get woke go broke and had to back off. They offered me financial services not a moral authority to fine me for a comment on an unrelated web site and which had nothing to do with my sales transactions. The Chinese social score method of thought control is anathema to the Bill of Rights and the Constitution which I still happen to believe in.

[Dave A]

2 minutes ago, michaelwjones said:

Isn't what we are really complaining about is the IRS figured out we were transferring money willy nilly and a portion of that is, in reality, income? Now we either have to become good record keepers or find another manner of payments. I suggest we go back to money orders or accepting checks assuming they clear. Certainly this will take instantaneous gratification and impulse buying out of the picture, but it does offers some relief for tracking income. Of course, face to face and cash still work, too.

No the big complaint is social credit scoring and policing of thoughts THEY don't like as self appointed moral authorities enforcing their desires in ways they think they can get away with.

[michaelwjones]

1 minute ago, Dave A said:

Yes and the first amendment means I don't have to agree to their policing of my thoughts because a few in authority there don't like them.

Absolutely. We just need to determine the best way to avoid what we find unconscionable. I find it annoying I now have to keep records for trying audio equipment, selling and moving on to the next piece. I'm not making a profit, but its still shows as income.

[michaelwjones]

3 minutes ago, Dave A said:

No the big complaint is social credit scoring and policing of thoughts THEY don't like as self appointed moral authorities enforcing their desires in ways they think they can get away with.

 

I understand, but its their sandbox... just like this is Klipsch's sandbox. 

[RealMarkDeneen]

Individual self-appointed authorities who claim to be arbiters of mis-information have the burden to demonstrate the details of that process, otherwise they are involved in the much simpler exercise of simple censorship. 

 

Usually, mis-information is described as:  “information that is false, inaccurate, or misleading according to the best available evidence at the time.” 

If that word is to have any credible meaning whatsoever, it must be examined critically. This presents several complications.

1) What are the "rules of evidence" and who defines or enforces them? Any individual? Or just CEOs who run companies? Courts?

2) In complex matters, what "judge or jury" is used to examine the evidence and issue the determination of accuracy? Some goofball CEO?

3) Who exactly is being mislead? A moron? A scientist? A politician? A consumer? Educated or uneducated? Is a person with absolutely no scientific training being misled by scientific information he doesn't understand? By words he has never seen? How do people file a complaint for being misled?

4) Who is it that can claim they possess "perfect information".

 

Consider for a moment the nation's most influential newspapers. They are in CONSTANT violation of spreading "misinformation" - it's their role in our polirical economy to do so. They are the propaganda bullhorns for the establishment and the state. Their stock-in-trade is misinformation. Ergo, what the PPALs and Googles are trying to promote here is stripping the lowest powered entities in the society (mere citizens) of the rights of expression while revelling in the non-stop spewing of misinformation by their corporate peers who want to "own" public discourse.

[michaelwjones]

36 minutes ago, RealMarkDeneen said:

Individual self-appointed authorities who claim to be arbiters of mis-information have the burden to demonstrate the details of that process...

 

In this purported instance, they did: PayPal’s sole discretion.

 

Back in the day, we had a bumper sticker that read "A**, Gas or Grass: nobody rides for free" We used to think it was clever. Turns out it's true. There is no free lunch either. I can't think of anything that does not have some "terms of service." Even death has rules, but in the end, we don't have to care about that. Everyone has the right to pick up their marbles and find another game. But, none of this answers Dave's question.

 

I'm using PayPal, in either mode, or cash. I have asked about MOs, but received "blank stares" in response. Most people are tied to the convenience of PP and plastic money and if I'm buying, it's their call how they want to be paid. If I am uncomfortable with that, my option is to not buy.

 

I think the safest move is to decide what minimizes your risk, whatever that is. I am not aware of other peer to peer payment systems that offer PP's protection or convenience. Venmo, Zelle & wire transfers are one way streets; taking credit cards is an option, as are the old standbys of checks, money orders and cash.

[RealMarkDeneen]

I haven't been describing my "risk" of using PPAL, I'm describing the risk to an open society represented by PPAL's authoritarian practices, and the lack of rigorous regulation by those we elect to carry out those duties for us. I don't mind saying that the worst possible people rushng in to fill that gaping void.