Confused; FL/FR from 5.1 AVR vs 2-channel stereo

[Emile]

Bit confused here and have not been able to find answers on the web.

 

Have an Onkyo TX-RZ810; standard 7.1 box with full pre-outs. If I use a 5.1 DVD, I assume that the sound on my FL/FR speakers is DIFFERENT as compared to hooking up the speakers directly to my DVD player (Oppo BVD-103). However, unable to find what is different / what is missing. (Actually, "hear" no difference as I have no clue what I am looking/listening for  )

 

In my specific case, have my AVR hooked up to front L/R RC-7's, rear RB-75's, and a DIY 15" Dayton sub.

Also have KPT-904's (with JBL HF section) - hooked up directly (now) to my Oppo via RCA. Reason for doing this is that I did not want to hook these up to my AVR FL/FR pre-outs as I thought I would be missing "something"  Especially since I play them LOUD - probably +10/20 dB's over my AVR output.

 

Would appreciate any thoughts/comments.

 

Cheers, Emile

[billybob]

Bumper

...

[billybob]

Yes Emile, If no one gets to you, I may wade in so. There is that to look forward to...🤠

[Emile]

34 minutes ago, billybob said:

I may wade in

Haha; would love to hear from you. Find it "strange" that no-one has never considered this  

[wuzzzer]

I’m confused.  How would you hook your speakers up directly to your oppo?

[rebuy]

He's too smart for me.

[Emile]

10 hours ago, wuzzzer said:

I’m confused

Sorry; was a "speech shortcut." Hooked up via pre-amp and power amp.  

[Emile]

10 hours ago, rebuy said:

He's too smart for me

Not really  Let me rephrase ... what is the (sound) difference between L/R from surround sound versus L/R from 2-channel stereo?

[Emile]

OK; let me try to explain it another way  

 

If I hookup my "back surround" pre-out we get a completely different speaker sound if compared to "stereo." So; I would assume that hooking up the L/R pre-outs would also give me a different sound from "stereo" as these signals are "processed for surround sound."

 

Right/wrong?  

[robert_kc]

Most SACD and Blu-ray discs have 2 (or more) audio tracks, e.g., stereo and multi-channel (e.g., 5.1).   Some DVDs have stereo and multi-channel audio tracks.   The audio track is selected via the recording’s menu.

If you’re playing the stereo audio track of a recording, you won’t be missing any content by connecting a stereo amp and speakers to the FL & FR outputs from the Oppo disc player.  Presumably the same is true for the pre-outs on your AVR.  In both cases this assumes that you have not activated “pseudo-surround-sound” in the unit’s software settings (e.g., DTS Neo 6).

OTOH, if you play the 5.1 audio track of a recording (e.g., Blu-ray or SACD), the content of the FL & FR channels will be different from the recording’s stereo track – because it is a different recording mix.  If you play the 5.1 audio track without center and rear channel speakers, you will be missing content (e.g., movie dialog).   

Is your Oppo connected to the AVR via HDMI?   I don’t think there would be a problem with connecting a stereo amp and speakers to the AVR’s FL & FR pre-outs, while the AVR’s amps drive the center and rear speakers.  My understanding is that this is a fairly common configuration.   I have no experience with this.  (I don’t own an AVR.  I always use the internal DACs and analog audio outputs on my Oppo UDP-205, BDP-105, and BDP-95, for both stereo and multi-channel recordings.)

If you are playing a 5.1 recording and driving the center and rear speakers via the AVR, I’d be disinclined to connect the stereo amp to the Oppo’s FL & FR analog audio outputs.  Rather, I’d connect the stereo amp to the AVR’s FL & FR analog audio pre-outs (as described in the previous paragraph).   My concern (I’m guessing about this) is that there might be different propagation delay via the Oppo’s FL & FR analog audio outputs vs. the AVR’s FL & FR analog audio outputs – IOW the FL & FR channels might be slightly out-of-synch with the center and rear channels.  (I’m not sure about this.)  Also, the Oppo’s DAC might have a slightly different sound than the AVR’s DAC – which could be good or bad, depending on your perspective.

Does this answer your question?
 

[Emile]

21 minutes ago, robert_kc said:

Does this answer your question?

Robert, thanks a lot! It is becoming clearer to me (and found out another mistake I made).

 

OK; let's assume we are using a 5.1 source ...

 

First, yes; Oppo is connected to AVR via HDMI. Also, Oppo is connected to separate preamp/amp/KPT-904's using its L/R outputs. And that was my first mistake   Thought that connection was giving me full "stereo," but it gives me "5.1 L/R." And no clue if this can be set to full stereo WITHOUT affecting the HDMI output. So; when I was comparing my Oppo "5.1 L/R" output with my AVR L/R pre-output I obviously did NOT hear a difference  

 

But the question kind of remains, i.e. What is the (sound) difference between "5.1 L/R" and "stereo." Seems to me that "5.1 L/R" SUBTRACTS the side/rear/other channels whereas they are present in full "stereo." But; have no clue how much this impacts the sound. Please advise.

 

Many thanks, Emile

 

 

[robert_kc]

24 minutes ago, Emile said:

Robert, thanks a lot! It is becoming clearer to me (and found out another mistake I made).

 

OK; let's assume we are using a 5.1 source ...

 

First, yes; Oppo is connected to AVR via HDMI. Also, Oppo is connected to separate preamp/amp/KPT-904's using its L/R outputs. And that was my first mistake   Thought that connection was giving me full "stereo," but it gives me "5.1 L/R." And no clue if this can be set to full stereo WITHOUT affecting the HDMI output. So; when I was comparing my Oppo "5.1 L/R" output with my AVR L/R pre-output I obviously did NOT hear a difference  

 

But the question kind of remains, i.e. What is the (sound) difference between "5.1 L/R" and "stereo." Seems to me that "5.1 L/R" SUBTRACTS the side/rear/other channels whereas they are present in full "stereo." But; have no clue how much this impacts the sound. Please advise.

 

Many thanks, Emile

 

 

 

Emile,

 

I'm heading out for a while.  I'll try to spend more time on this later.

 

For now, I suggest that you read your Oppo BDP-103 User Manual section titled "Audio Processing Setup", which begins on page 67.   It states:  "The Audio Processing section of the Setup Menu allows you to configure how the player will process audio signals before sending them to the output. In this section, all of the settings only affect the analog audio outputs, with a few exceptions listed in the “Note” section below." 

 

I believe this means that if you configure the Oppo to downmix multi-channel audio tracks to stereo, that affects only the analog audio outputs, not HDMI.

 

If you want to play a Blu-ray or SACD using only two speakers (L & R), one option is to play the recording's stereo audio track. 

 

Or, if your stereo amp is connected to the Oppo's FL & FR analog audio outputs, you can configure the Oppo to downmix to stereo, as explained on page 68 of your Oppo BDP-103 User Manual.  My understanding is that this will not affect HDMI, which you can easily test.

 

I'll check in later.

[robert_kc]

P.S. The  difference between "5.1 L/R" and "stereo" is decided by the recording engineer.  For the 5.1 audio track of a movie, the dialog is often concentrated in the center channel.  For the stereo track, the dialog is blended into the stereo channels.

[robert_kc]

P.P.S.  It would be helpful if you'd describe the amp and speakers you want to use for stereo, vs. multi-channel.   Do you want to use the preamp/amp/KPT-904 for stereo and L&R for multi-channel?   Or, do you want to use the preamp/amp/KPT-904 only for stereo, and use different L&R speakers (connected to the AVR) for multi-channel?

[Emile]

12 minutes ago, robert_kc said:

It would be helpful if you'd describe the amp and speakers you want to use for stereo, vs. multi-channel

Robert,

Thanks a million for your help on this.

 

OK;

Stereo setup is Oppo - Nikko Beta II preamp - Crown K1 - KPT-904's.

Multi channel is Oppo/other HDMI - Onkyo TX-RZ810 - RC-7 (front L/R) and RB-75's (rear) and sub.

 

Studied the Oppo manual and "think" any 5.1/higher input gets transferred to the Oppo RCA outputs as 5.1/higher (as per the tables). Tried the Oppo menu and cannot find a setting to "downgrade" its RCA outputs to stereo. Only stereo output comes from coax/optical. So, easiest way seems to be an optical to RCA converter   and then hook it up to my Nikko preamp. But, haha, could be wrong  

 

Thanks for the help  

[robert_kc]

If the Nikko Beta II preamp - Crown K1 - KPT-904's are used only for stereo playback, and different front Left & Right speakers (driven by the AVR) are used for multi-channel, then you could connect the preamp to the Oppo's FL & FR analog audio outputs.  (Earlier I had misunderstood your configuration.)

 

You have 2 options when you use your Nikko Beta II preamp - Crown K1 - KPT-904's to play a Blu-ray or SACD that features a multi-channel audio track and a stereo track:

1. From the recording's menu, under "Audio Options", select stereo.  This will play the stereo downmix that the recording engineer created.  Or,
    
2. You can play the recording's multi-channel audio track and have the Oppo downmix it to stereo.   The instructions for downmixing are on page 68 of the Oppo BDP-103 User Manual.  I'd be inclined to configure the Oppo's "Down Mix Mode" to "Stereo", in case you forget to select the recording's stereo track.  My understanding is that this will NOT affect multi-channel playback via the HDMI connection to you AVR.

There is no need for an outboard "optical to RCA converter" (i.e., DAC).   The Oppo can downmix audio from 5.1 to stereo.  An outboard DAC would compromise the audio quality, as explained in the Notes at the bottom of page 17 of the Oppo BDP-103 User Manual:

• Due to bandwidth limitations, high resolution audio formats such as Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD High Resolution and DTS-HD Master Audio cannot be sent through the coaxial or optical digital audio output. A reduced resolution version of the same audio track will be output instead. To listen to high resolution audio formats in their best quality, please use the HDMI connection if you have a receiver that handles HDMI audio (see page 11) or use the multi-channel analog outputs if you do not (see page 16). 
    
• Due to copyright restrictions, SACD audio cannot be sent through the coaxial or optical digital audio output. To listen to SACDs, please use the HDMI or analog audio connections.
   
• Due to copyright restrictions and bandwidth limitations, full resolution audio from DVD-Audio discs cannot be sent through the coaxial or optical digital audio output. To listen to DVDAudio in full resolution, please use the HDMI or analog audio connections.

[rebuy]

I only use my outboard amp for the center channel.

My centers are 4 ohm and the L/R and Surrounds are on the Marantz.

Since the center is the most important channel in a 5.1 or any surround system

this is the one that requires the most clarity and headroom, IMHO.

I also find there is plenty of surround sounds through the L/R & Back Channels.

I get a lot of bass info (full range sound) through the surrounds so I use full range speakers.

If I were using small speakers for surround duty the system would not sound as good

as it does now. 

With all that being said, the L/R & surrounds are just Ambient Speakers in

a multi-channel system.

[robert_kc]

P.S. 

 

I corrected the page number in my previous post for instructions for configuring the Oppo BDP-103's "Down Mix Mode" to "Stereo".  (Page 68 of the BDP-103 User Manual.)

 

Are you connecting 2 Klipsch RC-7 speakers (which Klipsch marketed as a center channel speaker) to your AVR's front Left & Right speaker terminals?  Do you have a center channel speaker connected to your AVR?

[robert_kc]

5 minutes ago, rebuy said:

 

With all that being said, the L/R & surrounds are just Ambient Speakers in

a multi-channel system.

 

This may be true for some Hollywood movies.

 

However, for multi-channel SACD and Blu-ray classical music recordings, the front Left & Right speakers usually contain most of the music content.  The amount of center channel content varies by classical recording. (Sometimes an operatic soprano will be concentrated in the center channel.) The rear speakers usually have very little content in classical recordings - mostly audience applause - and some hall "reverb" sound.

[rebuy]

8 minutes ago, robert_kc said:

 

This may be true for some Hollywood movies.

 

However, for multi-channel SACD and Blu-ray classical music recordings, the front Left & Right speakers usually contain most of the music content.  The amount of center channel content varies by classical recording. (Sometimes an operatic soprano will be concentrated in the center channel.) The rear speakers usually have very little content in classical recordings - mostly audience applause - and some hall "reverb" sound.

The way to test this is to play yer selection in 5.1 or whatever configuration you chose

and turn off yer centers. That way you'll know exactly what is on the remaining channels.

SACD is dead. 

I'm Not saying not to use quality speakers for L/R and surround.

I'm saying the center Should be the highest Quality in any system.

It should be Big and Very High Quality.