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Khorn question


svberger

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On 10/28/2022 at 11:01 PM, ClaudeJ1 said:

Former President of Klipsch, Bob Moers (who made Klipsch successful) told me 2 Milliseconds. Only your tastebuds can tell how much salt to put in your soup. Any more precision requires impulse responses, which are beyond the scope of this text.

I wasn't challenging the 2 ms, I just took an edjumacated guess at 1.75 ft, and don't really remember how I arrived at that 20 years ago. Since I didn't cut the bass bin in half I'm sure I just looked at the pictures of sectional views and with external measurements made that guess.

 

2ms equates to 2.25 ft, or a 6 in difference which is nothing really.

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On 10/29/2022 at 5:49 AM, Tom05 said:

I agree  , I don’t hear  any negative effect either  . And that also goes for the Khorn bass bin delay  , I guess someone would need to explain to me just what to listen for , maybe then I could appreciate the issue   . I understand the concept of course ,but I’ve always considered it as more of a technical flaw ,with little to no real world impact on audible sound quality.

I can't imagine who can hear that difference either. I did it because I was going active anyway as I was dissatisfied with the stock AK3 crossover (and the Al Klappenberger replacement crossover I bought) and the capability existed in my DSP. I was finally happy when I went active.

 

I have AK4 crossovers in another set of Khorns and I really like those, no active needed.

 

You can really hear the difference of time alignment when you have multiple speakers in a system that are at various distances from the listening position (say 4 - 3 way speakers or 12 individual motor drivers). The sound become very focused, clearer, sharper, and very uniform (versus muddier, echoee. etc.). Even I could hear the difference lol

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14 minutes ago, Quad Khorns said:

2ms equates to 2.25 ft, or a 6 in difference which is nothing really.

Not according the Wilson Audio, whose Chronosonic Speakers' Drivers are time aligned to 500 Microseconds and have some of the best imaging I've ever heard (the XvXmodel).

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On 10/28/2022 at 9:16 PM, KT88 said:

When I listen to my old 1977 LaScala I have the impression that these differences in running time are somewhat overrated. It sounds "right" despite all that. It might be different to get it "right" between midrange and tweeter. But even there, I don't consciously mind it the way it is.

Your mid to bass time alignment on a LaScala is within the standard Quarter wave tolerance, so no worries for you.

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19 minutes ago, Quad Khorns said:

I wasn't challenging the 2 ms, I just took an edjumacated guess at 1.75 ft, and don't really remember how I arrived at that 20 years ago.

You are much closer to the "truth" whatever that is than those who have NO time alignment.

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1 hour ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

You are much closer to the "truth" whatever that is than those who have NO time alignment.

That’s probably a pretty darn good way to look at it . Now that I’m a bit older and against all odds ,still enjoying  pretty good hearing , my mind has transformed into complete acceptance to the Khorn sound , I’ve abandoned all criticism because the general presentation is just so good , really hard to beat , especially when played with the Lascala center ,it’s nice to be satisfied , now , finally I can focus most  of  my attention  to the music or a good  movie . Life is good🤓

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1 hour ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

Not according the Wilson Audio, whose Chronosonic Speakers' Drivers are time aligned to 500 Microseconds and have some of the best imaging I've ever heard (the XvXmodel).

 

1 hour ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

You are much closer to the "truth" whatever that is than those who have NO time alignment.

I agree with getting closer to the "truth" if it has proven scientific basis, has reasonable cost, and most importantly, can actually be heard. I would even do it if it can't be heard but is low to no cost. If I had a confirmed measurement of the woofer pathway distance, it is only a matter of changing a few DSP settings.

 

I don't spend money on nonsense (very expensive wire, connectors, amplifiers, etc.).

 

500 microseconds time alignment equates to 9/16" difference in the sound origination point between two voice coils. A temperature gradient of a few degrees could have a 10-15% effect on the time delay, as well as room obstacles or anything else that effects air density.

 

I'd suggest the superb imaging you heard is due to other reasons. 

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2 hours ago, Tom05 said:

That’s probably a pretty darn good way to look at it . Now that I’m a bit older and against all odds ,still enjoying  pretty good hearing , my mind has transformed into complete acceptance to the Khorn sound , I’ve abandoned all criticism because the general presentation is just so good , really hard to beat , especially when played with the Lascala center ,it’s nice to be satisfied , now , finally I can focus most  of  my attention  to the music or a good  movie . Life is good🤓

Had Khorns for 30 years with a LaScala Mono center, then I discovered Klipsch Pro and HT with more channels. Sold all 3 and have gone through pretty much everything in the Pro line. Starting with MWMs and other big horns in the stack. It's a good disease to have.

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2 hours ago, Quad Khorns said:

I'd suggest the superb imaging you heard is due to other reasons. 

It was a public demo at a dealer with Dave Wilson's Wife and Son attending. Daryl Wilson did the Demo with their sub in corner, a $600,000 Turntable, which made the Dan Dagostino Mono blocks seem cheap. Not bad for a $1.3 Million setup. They played 1 Vinyl and 3 digital recordings, then another group was let into the room for a repeat performance. they were all great recordings of course, which would not be typical for everyone.

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13 hours ago, Quad Khorns said:

I'd suggest the superb imaging you heard is due to other reasons. 

Forgot to mention. I have extensive experience listening to speakers NOT in corners and with NO Horns. Especially Open Baffle, Planar Magnetics, Quad Electrostats, etc. that I own, have owned, and/or heard. They all have proven to me that for better IMAGING, etc. speakers have deeper 3 Dimensional depth not using bass reinforcement from corners, keeping them at least 1 meter away from all walls, results in a better ILLUSION of 3 dimensional depth. Anti PWK, I know but there's a reason some people prefer that particular performance criterion. They are not wrong, they have just made a different choice, usually involving more amplifier power rather than use the 6-9 db gain of corner placement. Tradeoffs, tradeoffs. For extensive technical coverage of this sort of thing:

https://www.linkwitzlab.com/

 

I'm glad to see survivors carrying on the work of the late, great,  Sigfried Linkwitz, who, initially brought us the famous Linkwitz-Riley filters when they were both Hewlett Packard superstar Engineers! If you like technical stuff, you will be lost for months at the site!

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I've got my Khorns backed into corners with adjacent 6' windows with the bottoms of the windows about 8" off the floor. I pull the blinds down to the tops of the bass bins. The windows extend about 18" from the front edge of the speakers.Bass is excellent, I think the windows actually amplify the low end. While sitting in my recliner I can feel low end vibrations in the leather. Movement of the glass can be felt by placing fingers on the glass. No rattling or distortion can be detected by my ears. The windows are double pane wood framed sashes.

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On 11/7/2022 at 9:57 AM, Schu said:

folks can't hear smearing?

really

If you are referring to time alignment of the voice coil sound origination point between drivers only separated by a mere inches the answer is an emphatic NO.

 

I only believe in facts, data, scientific principles, and most importantly what I hear after careful analytical A/B and sometimes C comparisons of 50+ years of listening.

 

I don't rely or care about the opinions and writings in magazine articles and websites by self-appointed golden ears

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6 hours ago, Quad Khorns said:

If you are referring to time alignment of the voice coil sound origination point between drivers only separated by a mere inches the answer is an emphatic NO.

 

I only believe in facts, data, scientific principles, and most importantly what I hear after careful analytical A/B and sometimes C comparisons of 50+ years of listening.

 

I don't rely or care about the opinions and writings in magazine articles and websites by self-appointed golden ears

I certainly don't have golden ears, but moving my LS tweeters to a small baffle on top of the cabinets and physically aligning the voice coils with the mids was quite apparent.  That doesn't mean they aren't enjoyable in their stock placement, but I could easily tell the difference. Yeah, 50+ years here, too.

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1 hour ago, Marvel said:

I certainly don't have golden ears, but moving my LS tweeters to a small baffle on top of the cabinets and physically aligning the voice coils with the mids was quite apparent.

 

Recently adjusted the alignment of my mid and tweeter, seems my first attempt at this was off by an inch or so.

 

It never makes a difference until it does.

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6 hours ago, Marvel said:

I certainly don't have golden ears, but moving my LS tweeters to a small baffle on top of the cabinets and physically aligning the voice coils with the mids was quite apparent.  That doesn't mean they aren't enjoyable in their stock placement, but I could easily tell the difference. Yeah, 50+ years here, too.

 

Marvel, since you have already removed your tweeters and mounted them on an extra board, please rotate the tweeters 90 degrees for fun. Did you mount the tweeters from behind on your new small baffle? This should be the case because the T35 is a diffraction horn and only radiates really wide in the horizontal plane this way.
I would be very curious to hear your sound experience if you simply set up the tweeter vertically. It could be that this fried bacon hiss is gone or minimised.
See the link below for EV's specifications and instructions for the T35/K77 (M in this case, but it applies to all versions of the K77).

 

https://mypicsonline.net/archive/archives.telex.com/archives/EV/Horns/EDS/T35A EDS.pdf

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15 hours ago, Marvel said:

I certainly don't have golden ears, but moving my LS tweeters to a small baffle on top of the cabinets and physically aligning the voice coils with the mids was quite apparent.  That doesn't mean they aren't enjoyable in their stock placement, but I could easily tell the difference. Yeah, 50+ years here, too.

How did you know where to align the voice coils? If you think the sound origination point on a driver is very obvious - it isn't. It can take specialized instruments to determine, and I have read a number of scientific articles that debated / measured where that point is, varying with driver.

 

And I did A/B/C experiments electronically varying the delay between drivers simulating alignment / misalignment. Until the delay was significant, equating to many inches / feet depending on frequency, before any change was noticeable. Wasn't only my ears listening

 

But one can convince themselves of anything, usually varies with the amount money spent. Re-read my previous post 

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26 minutes ago, Quad Khorns said:

How did you know where to align the voice coils? If you think the sound origination point on a driver is very obvious - it isn't. It can take specialized instruments to determine, and I have read a number of scientific articles that debated / measured where that point is, varying with driver.

 

And I did A/B/C experiments electronically varying the delay between drivers simulating alignment / misalignment. Until the delay was significant, equating to many inches / feet depending on frequency, before any change was noticeable. Wasn't only my ears listening

 

But one can convince themselves of anything, usually varies with the amount money spent. Re-read my previous post 

I just listen and the distance between the midrange horn and the tweeter horn that pleases my ears is chosen. Very simple. Of course, you can't just place the two voice coils on top of each other because then you would ignore all the phase shifts of the crossover.

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