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Heritage Jubilee in a Small Room – Three Months in


MMurg
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2 hours ago, MeloManiac said:

It is quite obvious you are aware of the fact that your listening room is small-ish for these speakers, and your observations and tweaks are certainly worthwhile, but often it reads like this analogy: you bought a marvelous muscle car, and you ride it on you driveway, while you should be taking it out to a race circuit and enjoy its full potential!

I am aware you are not the only one putting these speakers in a small room:

 

Just keep in mind @MMurg has experience also with these in the larger Klipsch Lab Listening Room and is we’ll aware of how they can reproduce sound in a much larger room.

 

 

 

 

On 10/31/2022 at 1:11 PM, MMurg said:

These speakers have not been over hyped.  They are the real deal.  Last week I went to a concert at Lehigh University featuring the Lehigh University Orchestra and Choir.  (My son sings bass in the Choir.)  It was another opportunity to hear what a live, unamplified orchestra and chorus sounds like.  I have to say that of all the speakers I’ve owned over the years, only the Jubilee seems to successfully reproduce the detail, dynamics, and sheer power of a live orchestra and chorus.  One other thing the Jubilee do best is producing the “performer in the room” tangibility, that feeling that you could reach out and touch the performer.  A few days ago, I purchased a used CD at a thrift shot of the Persuasions, a “doo-***” a cappella group, doing covers of U2 songs.  While it’s not something I would normally buy, I was mainly interested in the recording as demo/test material.  It was done by the audiophile label Chesky Records and was recorded direct to digital (no overdubs or remixing) in a Manhattan church.  The imaging of the semicircle of the singers with this recording is amazingly precise and realistic.  The “reach out and touch” feeling is astounding, as is everything else with these speakers.  After three months of owning the Jubilee, I have no regrets.

 

@MMurg So I’m curious can you describe the sense of imaging and soundstage scale in your room 🆚 the imaging and soundstage scale as experienced in the Klipsch Lab Listening Room..?  

 

miketn🙂

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3 hours ago, MeloManiac said:

If you put Heritage Jubelee speakers in a room that is too small, they won't sound right. They are truly mammoth in size, and according to the user manual (yes, I read it) they should be between 12 and 15 feet apart, and the MLP (main listening position) should be equally 12 to 15 feet distant, forming a triangle. My instinct also tells me there should be reasonable 'breathing space' behind the back of the MLP too, though this is not mentioned in the user manual. In other words, you need a really big room to do justice to these really big speakers.

It is quite obvious you are aware of the fact that your listening room is small-ish for these speakers, and your observations and tweaks are certainly worthwhile, but often it reads like this analogy: you bought a marvelous muscle car, and you ride it on you driveway, while you should be taking it out to a race circuit and enjoy its full potential!

That's actually not correct. Logical, but it's counter-intuitive. MMurgg ran the dimensions by Roy because of that very issue, very, very large speakers is a relatively smaller area. Roy advised they would sound great in a smaller area, and also added some specifics as to why it would be that way.  I think Mike has mentioned that is some of his every early posts when he got them.

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On 11/1/2022 at 5:12 PM, Quad Khorns said:

Thanks for the detailed write-up, explained very well and clearly. I will remember this if I decide to pull the trigger on a set of HJubes. My room is 20 x 20 so I don't know if I would have the off-axis issues you describe. However, I would engineer and fabricate a new front support system that would work with the rear driver moveable support to allow easy tilting of the horn and clearance of the front edge veneered sections. Per your pictures, I think I could use the factory mounting holes so no new ones would need to be drilled (I hate permanently changing something like these). I would also post the plans for any HJube owners to do the same.

 

I did a similar concept for a design/build to allow two horns per cabinet to be tilted independently on a modified Altec VOTT project. Haven't mounted them yet but it does work as designed.

The bracket works…..no need to modify. 

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5 hours ago, MeloManiac said:

I've been reading your posts, this one, and the previous ones, with great interest and a great bit of jealosy as well, I must admit. And I have hesitated about reacting to it, because these days, any 'negative' reaction online is seldom tolerated, even if it is an honest one.

Here's the thing: in my opinion, Klipsch Heritage speakers come in different sizes, proportional to the size of the room they are put in. Each model has its 'sweet spot' size of room. Put a pair of Heresy speakers in a large hall, and they won't sound right. Put La Scala speakers in the average teen's bedroom, and they won't sound right. 

If you put Heritage Jubelee speakers in a room that is too small, they won't sound right. They are truly mammoth in size, and according to the user manual (yes, I read it) they should be between 12 and 15 feet apart, and the MLP (main listening position) should be equally 12 to 15 feet distant, forming a triangle. My instinct also tells me there should be reasonable 'breathing space' behind the back of the MLP too, though this is not mentioned in the user manual. In other words, you need a really big room to do justice to these really big speakers.

It is quite obvious you are aware of the fact that your listening room is small-ish for these speakers, and your observations and tweaks are certainly worthwhile, but often it reads like this analogy: you bought a marvelous muscle car, and you ride it on you driveway, while you should be taking it out to a race circuit and enjoy its full potential!

I am aware you are not the only one putting these speakers in a small room:

An Unofficial Klipsch Jubilee Buyer's Guide - Klipsch Pro Audio - The  Klipsch Audio Community

 

Compare the above with a still image from one of Klipsch's official youtube videos:

image.png.4b1cbbe9e7250107563492edb4a5ea7d.png

 

 

Your opinion but I like facts. They work in small rooms. 

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6 hours ago, MeloManiac said:

I've been reading your posts, this one, and the previous ones, with great interest and a great bit of jealosy as well, I must admit. And I have hesitated about reacting to it, because these days, any 'negative' reaction online is seldom tolerated, even if it is an honest one.

Here's the thing: in my opinion, Klipsch Heritage speakers come in different sizes, proportional to the size of the room they are put in. Each model has its 'sweet spot' size of room. Put a pair of Heresy speakers in a large hall, and they won't sound right. Put La Scala speakers in the average teen's bedroom, and they won't sound right. 

If you put Heritage Jubelee speakers in a room that is too small, they won't sound right. They are truly mammoth in size, and according to the user manual (yes, I read it) they should be between 12 and 15 feet apart, and the MLP (main listening position) should be equally 12 to 15 feet distant, forming a triangle. My instinct also tells me there should be reasonable 'breathing space' behind the back of the MLP too, though this is not mentioned in the user manual. In other words, you need a really big room to do justice to these really big speakers.

It is quite obvious you are aware of the fact that your listening room is small-ish for these speakers, and your observations and tweaks are certainly worthwhile, but often it reads like this analogy: you bought a marvelous muscle car, and you ride it on you driveway, while you should be taking it out to a race circuit and enjoy its full potential!

 

Your muscle car analogy only works if the purpose of purchasing the Jubilee is raw sound pressure level. It's not. There is a reason why Klipsch Chief Engineer Roy Delgado, the person worked with Paul Klipsch on the original Jubilee design and is responsible for the updated Heritage Jubilee, says that "smaller rooms need bigger horns". It's about directivity control. The smaller the room, the more important it is to keep sound off the room boundaries. Early reflections can prevent proper imaging and all reflections can change the timbe of the sound depending on what range of frequencies end up being reflected. In general, the larger the horn mouth, the lower the frequency is before the horn loses directivity control. With the K-402 horn in the Jubilee, its low frequency cutoff is actually well below where the driver is crossed over to the bass bin. So, that horn doesn't lose directivity control across its entire operating range in the Jubilee. Very little sound ends up being reflected from nearby room boundaries.

 

Other goals for the Jubilee design are ultra-low low distortion and very high dynamic range. The large, fully horn-loaded Jubilee has ultra-low distortion, orders of magnitude lower than typical speakers. It about the cleanest sounding speaker you likely to hear in anyone's home.  It's also the only speaker I've ever owned that properly reproduces the dynamic range of a large orchestra. Another goal was the 2-way design, which eliminates a crossover point and another driver/horn and their issues (inter-driver interference, polar mismatches, phase and timing problems, etc.). Because of this, the imaging capabilities of the Jubilee are amazing. None of these things depend on large room size either.

 

I could go on, but I think I've made the point. I have a pair of Heritage Jubilee in my smallish living room, and they sound fantastic in that room. I didn't buy them to make myself deaf listening at dangerous volumes. I bought them because they are wildly great sounding, by far the best sounding speakers I've ever owned.

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3 hours ago, mikebse2a3 said:

@MMurg So I’m curious can you describe the sense of imaging and soundstage scale in your room 🆚 the imaging and soundstage scale as experienced in the Klipsch Lab Listening Room..?  

 

miketn🙂

 

The soundstage is smaller than it was in the Klipsch Lab listening room, but not as much as one would expect by the difference in scale.  I still get wall to wall imaging and because I'm sitting fairly close, the "angular distance" (the angle to the limits of the image from the listening position) is not that much different.  Since all my listening rooms are about the same width, it's about what I expected.  However, the Jubilee imaging precision and realism are just as good as what I remember hearing in the lab.  It's leaps ahead of my Palladium systems, which are no slouches at imaging themselves.  🙂 

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12 hours ago, MeloManiac said:

I've been reading your posts, this one, and the previous ones, with great interest and a great bit of jealosy as well, I must admit. And I have hesitated about reacting to it, because these days, any 'negative' reaction online is seldom tolerated, even if it is an honest one.

Here's the thing: in my opinion, Klipsch Heritage speakers come in different sizes, proportional to the size of the room they are put in. Each model has its 'sweet spot' size of room. Put a pair of Heresy speakers in a large hall, and they won't sound right. Put La Scala speakers in the average teen's bedroom, and they won't sound right. 

If you put Heritage Jubelee speakers in a room that is too small, they won't sound right. They are truly mammoth in size, and according to the user manual (yes, I read it) they should be between 12 and 15 feet apart, and the MLP (main listening position) should be equally 12 to 15 feet distant, forming a triangle. My instinct also tells me there should be reasonable 'breathing space' behind the back of the MLP too, though this is not mentioned in the user manual. In other words, you need a really big room to do justice to these really big speakers.

It is quite obvious you are aware of the fact that your listening room is small-ish for these speakers, and your observations and tweaks are certainly worthwhile, but often it reads like this analogy: you bought a marvelous muscle car, and you ride it on you driveway, while you should be taking it out to a race circuit and enjoy its full potential!

 

 

In regards to your muscle car analogue, let's leap past it to super cars, like the top Ferraris, Lamborghinis, Koenigseggs, and of course Bugattis.  How many of those cars actually make it to a race track?  I think the answer would be less than 10%.  Does this mean that more than 90% of super car owners are wasting or misusing their cars?  I don't think so.  They drive them around happily, enjoying the fine handling, braking, and occasionally, the amazing acceleration.  Just as you don't have to drive a Bugatti at 350 km/hr  (218 mph) on a track or on an autobahn to enjoy using it, MMurg doesn't have to run his Jubilees up to deafening levels to truly enjoy them. 

 

Most roads are not autobahns, and most living rooms aren't auditoriums, and yet people can still really enjoy their gear.  When Roy says that "The smaller the room, the bigger the horn that's needed.", it's more than an opinion.  It's actual knowledge, from a well-trained and very experienced engineer.  And for what it's worth, it's backed up by the opinions of us humble owners of these big horns.

 

I hope that wasn't too 'negative'.  We all have our opinions, and we all make compromises, every one of us.  Some of us may say that someone has compromised his system and its sound by using undersized speaker wire.  (Uh-Oh!  Be Alert For Incoming Flames!). However, not many of us say that someone has compromised his dream system by having an undersized house.  Can you see the difference?

 

For what it's worth, my JubScalas are about 12 feet apart, and I sit roughly 12 feet from them.  My reclining sofa is placed so that my head is about one-third of the distance from the back wall to the front wall.  That should be ideal, but I'm sure that even so, MMurg's system sounds way better than mine.

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11 hours ago, MMurg said:

I could go on, but I think I've made the point. I have a pair of Heritage Jubilee in my smallish living room, and they sound fantastic in that room. I didn't buy them to make myself deaf listening at dangerous volumes. I bought them because they are wildly great sounding, by far the best sounding speakers I've ever owned.

 

I want to thank you, and others, for not reacting in an aggressive way to me. After reading your answers, I have googled for 'large speakers in small room' and it seems you can't go wrong with (really) big speakers in small rooms. This was new to me, and counter-intuitive. I stand corrected.

Enjoy the music!

 

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3 hours ago, Dave A said:

I have seen MCM 1900's in fairly small rooms and within reason if you can get them through the door the bigger the better.

 

Yes, that’s the rule of thumb on the Forum:  If the speakers fit through the door, they’re not too big.

 

Of course, nearly all of the Klipsch Pro speakers are less than 24” deep, in order to fit behind movie screens.

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6 hours ago, MeloManiac said:

I want to thank you, and others, for not reacting in an aggressive way to me. After reading your answers, I have googled for 'large speakers in small room' and it seems you can't go wrong with (really) big speakers in small rooms. This was new to me, and counter-intuitive. I stand corrected.

Enjoy the music!

 

Don't feel bad about having that initial response that seems intuitive at first.  The expectation of large speakers not performing well in small rooms is not unreasonable since this can be the case with many direct radiator speaker designs.  It's the reason why you see many audiophile speaker setups with the speakers pulled well away from the front and side walls, often accompanied by significant room treatment near the speakers.  This is because many direct radiator speakers have little directivity control.  Many monopole direct radiator speakers can have significant sound energy even up to 90° off-axis (sideways) or more, leading to significant reflected sound.  As I mentioned above, early reflections can prevent proper imaging and all reflections can change the timbe of the sound depending on what range of frequencies end up being reflected and the timing of those reflections.  So, the larger the direct radiator speaker, the closer they have to be placed to the room boundaries in smaller rooms, exacerbating what I've described.

 

On the other hand, as horns get larger, the better they control directivity.  As you move up the Heritage line in size, the ability to place the speakers closer to the room boundaries (and hence into small rooms) increases.  The only large Heritage speaker that might have issues in a room my size would be the Klipschorn.  This is only due to the wide splay angle between the bass bin horn mouths.  My understanding is that you need to be about 12 feet away for the bass horn mouths to sum properly at the listening position.  I have La Scala AL5 as the surround speakers in this system in the back corners behind the couch.  They also sound good in this room even though I'm sitting even closer to those than the Jubilee.

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1 hour ago, Islander said:

 

 

Of course, nearly all of the Klipsch Pro speakers are less than 24” deep, in order to fit behind movie screens.

2 exceptions ,    Klipsch KPT-1802-HLS  sub +  the KPT-684-SW ....... both are 31 inches deep ,  

 

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For me it’s not the size as much as the distance. I’ve never heard horns that integrate well in the relative near field. All that I have experience with have required around 12-14 ft between speaker and listener to sound their best. Sure they sound good closer, but not optimum. I think we should all strive to get the very best performance possible out of whatever speakers we own.

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4 hours ago, Shakeydeal said:

For me it’s not the size as much as the distance. I’ve never heard horns that integrate well in the relative near field. All that I have experience with have required around 12-14 ft between speaker and listener to sound their best. Sure they sound good closer, but not optimum. I think we should all strive to get the very best performance possible out of whatever speakers we own.

 

Then you have obviously not heard the new Jubilee.  With one large CD horn covering from 340 Hz to 20 kHz, what needs to integrate?  The speaker acts almost like a point source.  You can get quite close to the Jubilee, and it still sounds like one integrated sound source.  The Jubilee is nothing like the Khorn in the regard.

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9 hours ago, OO1 said:

2 exceptions ,    Klipsch KPT-1802-HLS  sub +  the KPT-684-SW ....... both are 31 inches deep ,  

 

The MWMs a

 

5 hours ago, Shakeydeal said:

For me it’s not the size as much as the distance. I’ve never heard horns that integrate well in the relative near field. All that I have experience with have required around 12-14 ft between speaker and listener to sound their best. Sure they sound good closer, but not optimum. I think we should all strive to get the very best performance possible out of whatever speakers we own.

The MWMs are 45 inches deep.

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10 hours ago, Shakeydeal said:

For me it’s not the size as much as the distance. I’ve never heard horns that integrate well in the relative near field. All that I have experience with have required around 12-14 ft between speaker and listener to sound their best. Sure they sound good closer, but not optimum. I think we should all strive to get the very best performance possible out of whatever speakers we own.

 

How far do you feel that you need to be from your La Scala IIs before you feel that their three drivers integrate properly?  Coytee has owned numerous big Klipsch speakers, including UG Jubilees.  He did a check of minimum listening distances, and found that he had to be quite far from Klipschorns, nearly 20 feet/6 metres, but the Jubilees came together at a much closer distance, under 10 feet/3 metres, if memory serves.

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