heresyForthe1sttime Posted December 3, 2022 Share Posted December 3, 2022 I'm familiar with the design advantages of monoblocks for 2 channel/stereo recordings, however, how does that translate to someone who listens to say 50% mono recordings. Is channel separation irrelevant then? The larger question is: Is there value in monoblocks for someone who listens to recordings circa <1959 ? wondering if there's something i don't understand....or is it obvious.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the real Duke Spinner Posted December 3, 2022 Share Posted December 3, 2022 No Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captainbeefheart Posted December 3, 2022 Share Posted December 3, 2022 If two separate channels process identical information then it stands to reason that cross talk through a shared power supply won't cause the same issues compared to two separate channels processing two different sets of information. The cross-talk pollutes one set of information from the other; each output no longer contains only the pure information that was at it's inputs. So if the two separate channels both contain identical information then cross talk won't matter and there is no benefit to two mono amps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the real Duke Spinner Posted December 3, 2022 Share Posted December 3, 2022 11 minutes ago, captainbeefheart said: If two separate channels process identical information then it stands to reason that cross talk through a shared power supply won't cause the same issues compared to two separate channels processing two different sets of information. The cross-talk pollutes one set of information from the other; each output no longer contains only the pure information that was at it's inputs. So if the two separate channels both contain identical information then cross talk won't matter and there is no benefit to two mono amps. No Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captainbeefheart Posted December 4, 2022 Share Posted December 4, 2022 50 minutes ago, heresyForthe1sttime said: Is channel separation irrelevant then? It's not irrelevant when you are listening to stereo recordings the other 50% of the time. Of course that is only if you have a source capable of excellent channel separation for stereo recording playback. Vinyl stereo playback systems have awful channel separation. 51 minutes ago, heresyForthe1sttime said: The larger question is: Is there value in monoblocks for someone who listens to recordings circa <1959 ? Not really, no. If you are on the fence about whether to get mono amps or a stereo unit ask yourself what source do you use most? If you say vinyl then the cross-talk is horrendous with vinyl playback and mono amplifiers aren't going to matter since the pollution has already taken place at the source. If you listen to digital sources then mono amps will be technically beneficial the other 50% of the time when you listening to stereo recordings. Digital sources have excellent channel separation compared to vinyl playback. There are other benefits to running mono power amps other than channel separation. It's the lesser of two evils to have longer interconnects, especially balanced ones while keeping the mono amplifier directly next to the speaker with a very short speaker cable length. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heresyForthe1sttime Posted December 4, 2022 Author Share Posted December 4, 2022 Thank you for your generous reply. You make light of something interesting: How a good (jazz) mono record vs. a stereo record is more desirable objectively..... but then, you listen to a sample such as early columbia / teo macero produced stereo recordings - possibly 1st 200 recordings that were released. They sound pretty amazing - example dave brubeck: Time out 1959. I agree with you for certain, but some of these early ones are impressive to my ears despite the limitation of a record vs. digital. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the real Duke Spinner Posted December 4, 2022 Share Posted December 4, 2022 What possible difference is being debated here ?? 🙄 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captainbeefheart Posted December 4, 2022 Share Posted December 4, 2022 16 hours ago, heresyForthe1sttime said: Thank you for your generous reply. You make light of something interesting: How a good (jazz) mono record vs. a stereo record is more desirable objectively..... but then, you listen to a sample such as early columbia / teo macero produced stereo recordings - possibly 1st 200 recordings that were released. They sound pretty amazing - example dave brubeck: Time out 1959. I agree with you for certain, but some of these early ones are impressive to my ears despite the limitation of a record vs. digital. I have tons of records and enjoy them immensely, I'm not a perfectionist digital snob by any means. I read an article written by one of the big recording engineers, the name escapes me but he claims that some high frequency cross talk between channels improves the sound and is one of the reasons people love to listen to vinyl. So he actually mixes this high frequency cross talk into near perfect digital recordings to emulate vinyl on CD or streaming formats. I found that very interesting. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heresyForthe1sttime Posted December 5, 2022 Author Share Posted December 5, 2022 On 12/3/2022 at 8:52 PM, the real Duke Spinner said: What possible difference is being debated here ?? 🙄 no debate- just confirming the that monoblocks provide no sonic advantage if you are listening to mono recordings, which I assumed, but wanted to confirm with someone who knows way more vs. me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billybob Posted December 5, 2022 Share Posted December 5, 2022 On 12/3/2022 at 5:49 PM, heresyForthe1sttime said: I'm familiar with the design advantages of monoblocks for 2 channel/stereo recordings, however, how does that translate to someone who listens to say 50% mono recordings. Is channel separation irrelevant then? The larger question is: Is there value in monoblocks for someone who listens to recordings circa <1959 ? wondering if there's something i don't understand....or is it obvious.... The advantage is true mono, whether you are listening to tube or solid state. BTW, using 1 speaker. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
costerdock Posted December 6, 2022 Share Posted December 6, 2022 All I know is mono material - sounds just awesome with my mono's - very centered between the two speakers with depth and texture. Bob Dylan mono albums sound wonderful. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubo Posted December 7, 2022 Share Posted December 7, 2022 Dual Mono Block Integrated Amps have a following They are typically in the 50 WPC range and are snapped up quickly. Looking at the performance specs nothing jumped out at me when I took a quick look them How does any AC flow backwards through the DC power supply and filter caps and the higher energy AC is happening on the Amp rails or circuits and far from the DC supply The line level voltage from the pre amp is tiny and away from the other channel how can it induce cross talk especially if using multi layer boards with ground planes. Yeah the vintage stuff, some barely qualifies as a PCB with traces dribbled onto the board. Kenwood KA-9100 Dual Mono Specifications: Power output: 90 watts per channel into 8ohm (stereo) Frequency response: 7Hz to 50kHz Total harmonic distortion: 0.03% Input sensitivity: 2.5mV (MM), 150mV (line) Signal to noise ratio: 83dB (MM), 100dB (line) Output: 1V (Pre out) Speaker load impedance: 4ohm to 16ohm Dimensions: 430 x 149 x 384mm Weight: 16.7kg Year: 1977 https://www.stereonet.com/forums/topic/340186-kenwood-ka-9100-dual-mono-vintage-integrated-amplifier/ It is a beauty, design matters 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubo Posted December 8, 2022 Share Posted December 8, 2022 Good discussion with some facts and measurement on the AVS Forum Quote No. Also it is exceedingly unlikely that in any real world scenario the improved channel separation would be audible because, as with most stereo power amps, the channel separation is already quite good. Edit to add: I looked up a technical review to confirm, but it's for their multi-ch. E-500 amp, from some years ago: "Crosstalk at 1 kHz driving 2.83 volts into an 8-ohm load was –80.97 dB left to right and –83.17 dB right to left. " Emotiva BasX System Review Test Bench Test Bench Emotiva BasX Speaker System L/C/R Sensitivity: 88 dB from 500 Hz to 2 kHz www.soundandvision.com https://www.avsforum.com/threads/benefits-of-dual-monoblocks-vs-stereo-power-amp.3248840/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the real Duke Spinner Posted December 8, 2022 Share Posted December 8, 2022 35 minutes ago, Bubo said: Dual Mono Block Integrated Amps have a following They are typically in the 50 WPC range and are snapped up quickly. Looking at the performance specs nothing jumped out at me when I took a quick look them How does any AC flow backwards through the DC power supply and filter caps and the higher energy AC is happening on the Amp rails or circuits and far from the DC supply The line level voltage from the pre amp is tiny and away from the other channel how can it induce cross talk especially if using multi layer boards with ground planes. Yeah the vintage stuff, some barely qualifies as a PCB with traces dribbled onto the board. Kenwood KA-9100 Dual Mono Specifications: Power output: 90 watts per channel into 8ohm (stereo) Frequency response: 7Hz to 50kHz Total harmonic distortion: 0.03% Input sensitivity: 2.5mV (MM), 150mV (line) Signal to noise ratio: 83dB (MM), 100dB (line) Output: 1V (Pre out) Speaker load impedance: 4ohm to 16ohm Dimensions: 430 x 149 x 384mm Weight: 16.7kg Year: 1977 https://www.stereonet.com/forums/topic/340186-kenwood-ka-9100-dual-mono-vintage-integrated-amplifier/ It is a beauty, design matters Has one 1980 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MicroMara Posted December 8, 2022 Share Posted December 8, 2022 45 minutes ago, the real Duke Spinner said: Has one 1980 loving the kenwood vintage gear 🙂 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the real Duke Spinner Posted December 8, 2022 Share Posted December 8, 2022 5 minutes ago, MicroMara said: loving the kenwood vintage gear 🙂 I sold mine for I don't know what. 🙄 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted December 12, 2022 Share Posted December 12, 2022 According to Paul McGowan of P&S Audio, when listening to a stereo source, a dual-mono amplifier does sound better than a stereo amp with a shared power supply. Monoblocks are slightly better than dual-mono. The big jump in sound improvement is from stereo to dual-mono, and the jump (step?) to monoblocks is also there, but it's much smaller. He knows a lot more about this than me, so I'll go with that. As for listening in mono, there should be no difference, since as the real Duke Spinner and captainbeefheart posted, both channels are carrying identical program material. It's tempting to put "identical data" these days. The only difference could be that mono blocks are generally fairly high-performing units, benefitting in other ways than channel separation. With some companies, there are directly comparable dual-mono and monoblock units, but much of the time this is not the case, making apples-to-apples comparisons difficult or impossible. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.