Random thoughts on our systems

[michaelwjones]

1 hour ago, richieb said:

...comparing my modest Jube rig...

 

😆

 

What does that make my set up? 🤣

[babadono]

2 hours ago, JimMeader said:

@Babadono

 

I noticed you have brick in the lower half of your back wall, it seems that would cause hard surface bounce for a sound room ??????

Yea I wish.... not mine...just a photo from the internet...but I do know LOTS of studios do this. Mount in soffits above the mixing desk that is.

[Seadoc]

Not hanging but in-wall mounted, and wife approved.  Klipsch R-5502-W11 comes to mind.

[Marvel]

On 12/5/2022 at 5:19 PM, MeloManiac said:

I read that article in the Klipsch blog a while ago. As far as I remember, these were no standard Heresy speakers, and they hung upside down, I mean with the woofer closest to the ceiling, which makes sense.

Still a fair amount of space above.

 

[the real Duke Spinner]

On 12/5/2022 at 8:00 AM, michaelwjones said:

 

 

And besides, we have direct/reflected sound provided by Bose 901s to replicate the sound of live music... 

BOSE

Buy Other Sound Equipment. 😀

[Southern]

On 12/4/2022 at 7:04 PM, JimMeader said:

I went to a Christmas Concert last night and the 100 piece plus orchestra was great as well as the sound system.

 

I started thinking about the concert hall and its setup. If you think of the last concert you went to and or even concert halls where was the sound coming from. Last night and most times the sound was coming from speakers located above the stage at or near the ceiling pointing down to the audience.

 

A lot of people are trying to replicate LIVE Music with our speakers yet we keep trying to do this with speakers sitting on stands or floor standing speakers. Why has no one used ceiling mounted speakers. To me Ceiling mounted speakers would have the best uninterrupted path to where we are sitting and listening. There would be no furniture in the way, nothing in the way of first reflection point etc.

 

I addition to this thought process what about putting a down firing sub woofer hung from the center of the ceiling. Think about it the sub sound waves are larger than the rest and would have the longest uninterrupted path if coming from the ceiling.

 

Your thoughts?????

Concert halls have ceiling heights which exceed most of the home applications.  From my experience listening to home theater systems with ceiling mounted speakers was very unimpressive.  The sound was very localized, possibly due to the relatively short ceiling height, which made stereo/home theater seperation very limited, similar to listening to elevator music.

 

As for the subwoofer, I have an older SVS PB12+2 which uses two downward firing subwoofers that can fill a room with bass.  I prefer the downward facing subwoofers because they are kid and pet friendly.  As far as placing the subwoofer towards the ceiling, I'm not sure what is to be gained due to the long sound waves.

[Islander]

2 hours ago, Southern said:

Concert halls have ceiling heights which exceed most of the home applications.  From my experience listening to home theater systems with ceiling mounted speakers was very unimpressive.  The sound was very localized, possibly due to the relatively short ceiling height, which made stereo/home theater seperation very limited, similar to listening to elevator music.

 

As for the subwoofer, I have an older SVS PB12+2 which uses two downward firing subwoofers that can fill a room with bass.  I prefer the downward facing subwoofers because they are kid and pet friendly.  As far as placing the subwoofer towards the ceiling, I'm not sure what is to be gained due to the long sound waves.

 

I agree with you about the ceiling heights.  I’d like to have a cathedral ceiling, as I’m sure many others would, too, but not many homes are built that way.

 

As for subwoofers, I have neither kids nor pets in-home, so my audio gear is safe from curious fingers, noses, paws, and claws.  Accordingly, I use front-firing subs.  However, to reduce or eliminate early reflections, and to bring them closer to ear height, my subs are positioned above the floor, one on a small table and the other one on an LP storage box.  This works well, with the bedroom subs also, and the subs are on neoprene pads, which may reduce the amount of bass energy that could enter the ceilings of my downstairs neighbour.  I live in a condo apartment, so I keep in mind that there’s no point in pissing off people I may have to deal with.  What goes around, and all that.

 

The funny thing about bass instruments, and the subwoofers that reproduce much of their music, is that they play below our optimized listening range.  Our ears and brains are primarily tuned for for sensitivity to speech and sounds of possible danger. Deep bass notes almost never fall into those categories, so we’re not able to “decode” them as accurately as mid-range sounds.  To quote two people:  first, PWK, who famously said, “We live in the mid-range.”, and my father, who played string bass (upright bass/double bass) in a jazz band when he was younger, and said “The average person in the audience can’t even tell if the bassist is playing in tune.”

 

Accordingly, it’s hard to evaluate the performance of a subwoofer.  With regular speakers, you can listen for clarity, fine detail retrieval, especially in voices (for the reasons mentioned above), accurate timbre (Do the voices and instruments sound like actual voices and instruments, or at least come close?), consistent frequency response at different volume levels, dynamic range, and so on.

 

With subs, on the other hand, you may need to depend on magazine reviews, because they should have the test gear that can “hear” what our ears can’t.  Unlike regular speakers, subs operate in company with speakers (the “regular” is assumed), not on their own, so they have to be evaluated on how well they integrate into a typical system.  A vocal, guitar, violin, or cello solo can be carried completely by a speaker on its own, but a bass solo won’t be restricted to the subwoofer, since the bass instrument produces tones that are higher than the subs’ operating range, sounds like the player’s fingers on the strings or keys, for example.

 

In a store review years ago, I read how a guy went to the store with some of his test music, and wanted to test the sub he was interested in for presence and “slam”, at high volume, of course.  When stuff started rattling in adjacent departments, the music got turned down pretty quickly, but he naïvely didn’t understand why.  He thought the shop was showing poor customer service.  It really does take all kinds of people to make a world...

 

The point that I’m making (finally!) is that some (or maybe most) of the things that we do to get great performance from our subs is mainly theoretical.  We think that this or that should help the sub sound its best, but most of the time we’re guessing, unless we’re dealing with one of those monster subs that seems to distort time and space in its vicinity, like one of those fan subs.  They definitely do what other subs can’t do.  Sure, we can tell if the sub goes noticeably deeper, or if it has much more power, but that’s most of it, in my case, anyway.  Adding a second powerful sub (850 watts RMS) did smooth out the bass response, eliminating a strong bass peak right in front of the sofa, so that was something.

 

Anyway, we do the various tweaks at the barely-audible level, hoping that they’ll add up to make a change that we will be able to hear, and they often do.  Happy tweaking, and happy listening!

[JimMeader]

my 15 inch 25 year old Velodyne needs to be refoamed, so I am currently using a 10 inch Polk sub. Surprisingly is does a good job at normal listening levels crossed over at 120  it really fills in for the La Scala's, turn it up and it distorts quicly

 

BTW my La Scala's are raised up to a level that the Squaker is at ear level not the Tweeter in my 17X22 room with 14ft ceilings and a listening position that is 14 feet away from the speakers which are about 11-12 feet apart. It has taken a lot of experimentation and out side of the box ideas but now the room is filled with music even if you are walking around, in addition the sound in other rooms is still very enjoyable.

 

To each their own and always enjoy the Music

 

 

[CWOReilly]

31 minutes ago, JimMeader said:

my 15 inch 25 year old Velodyne needs to be refoamed, so I am currently using a 10 inch Polk sub. Surprisingly is does a good job at normal listening levels crossed over at 120  it really fills in for the La Scala's, turn it up and it distorts quicly

 

BTW my La Scala's are raised up to a level that the Squaker is at ear level not the Tweeter in my 17X22 room with 14ft ceilings and a listening position that is 14 feet away from the speakers which are about 11-12 feet apart. It has taken a lot of experimentation and out side of the box ideas but now the room is filled with music even if you are walking around, in addition the sound in other rooms is still very enjoyable.

 

To each their own and always enjoy the Music

 

 

+1 on the Velodyne! I have an 18 in a much smaller space. 

[JimMeader]

@CWOReilly      

 

How do you like your tweeters   When I rebuilt my La Scala's I rounded the edges of the motor board  around  both tweeters and Squakers- not sure if it made that much difference but it do not hurt anything either.

 

did you change your crossovers also

[CWOReilly]

1 hour ago, JimMeader said:

@CWOReilly      

 

How do you like your tweeters   When I rebuilt my La Scala's I rounded the edges of the motor board  around  both tweeters and Squakers- not sure if it made that much difference but it do not hurt anything either.

 

did you change your crossovers also

To my ears much smoother and detailed.  Had them in the CW first. Crossover in LS are stock AA, rebuilt with OE parts kit from JEM. 

[OO1]

2 hours ago, JimMeader said:

  When I rebuilt my La Scala's I rounded the edges of the motor board  around  both tweeters and Squakers- 

great job