Crossover A Klipschorn cap replacement help

[Travis In Austin]

@Edgar please, please, please post in this thread.

 

Please explain what Roy does to make sure the transfer function is identical AND that the sound is identical with the replacement parts. 

 

Please explain how in the real world manufacturers select a particular part, like in a crossover network, that goes in the end product (and I know the answer to that isn't cost alone). 

[Travis In Austin]

22 hours ago, captainbeefheart said:

Of course one can install random capacitors into the filter networks and measure the output until you find the desired transfer function.

That's not how he does it either. 

 

@Edgar where are you? You were there when he explained it. You don't listen to stats, ESR, or DF.

[captainbeefheart]

1 minute ago, Travis In Austin said:

That's not how he does it either. 

 

That wasn't the point.

 

My point was how they select it doesn't matter. We can still look at the direct results and analyze it right?

 

2 minutes ago, Travis In Austin said:

You don't listen to stats, ESR, or DF.

 

But to analyze the results from a particular part that was selected then one needs to discuss certain properties of said part.

 

 

 

[captainbeefheart]

14 minutes ago, Travis In Austin said:

Please explain how in the real world manufacturers select a particular part

 

Really?

 

In case you don't know that is how we select parts in the real world. Maybe some hacks do it by the seat of their pants but the rest of us that know what we are doing understand things like ESR and DF and use that to select the correct part. You did see my example of a voltage regulator and selecting the output capacitor no?

 

 

[Travis In Austin]

27 minutes ago, captainbeefheart said:

 

That wasn't the point.

 

My point was how they select it doesn't matter. We can still look at the direct results and analyze it right?

 

 

But to analyze the results from a particular part that was selected then one needs to discuss certain properties of said part.

 

 

 

No, because despite what you say you are saying (just discussing the properties of parts) that not all your are doing. You go on to make assumptions about how/why PWK selected parts, why KGI/Roy use certain parts and you don't have the foggiest idea on either. 

 

Don't make assumptions about what Roy does what he does. He has been selecting drivers, horns, parts (including caps) for decades. People might read your posts and think you know why he does what he does, and you don't. 

 

Stick with what you know.

[Travis In Austin]

27 minutes ago, captainbeefheart said:

 

Really?

 

In case you don't know that is how we select parts in the real world. Maybe some hacks do it by the seat of their pants but the rest of us that know what we are doing understand things like ESR and DF and use that to select the correct part. You did see my example of a voltage regulator and selecting the output capacitor no?

 

 

Not you, that was to @Edgar who for sure knows what he is talking about when it comes to designing xover networks in the real word, selecting parts for production, etc., for audio companies, for profit. There is no "us".  It's to Edgar. He knows what he talking about, and most importantly, always has a knack about discussing controversial subjects in an objective and simple fashion. Like PWK used to do in his Dope From Hope publications. He often will relate things to things he designed, and give practical examples - aka, the real world. 

 

I called on him because he was there when Roy was talking about all of the technical aspects of the AK6, and when he discussed how he made sure that the replacement parts for the XOs sounded and measured  identical to the lab standards. 

 

What you continue to fail to understand is that Re: replacement caps that Roy selected, tested, measured, and listened to, the goals and selection process are not the same for a new XO. The goal was to have the identical sound and performance as the original designer intended, that was verified by measuring, and finally listening. Note of what you are talking about is remotely close to the process Roy described to get there.

 

That's what we want isn't it: on parts that change/need replacing over time, we want to sound and perform like the original? Me personally, I could care less what color they are, what they are made out of, etc.

 

I know that some might be interested in their properties, and I do like the parts where you stick to the ESR and DF to explain why theoretically they might sound/perform "better" or there would be "no difference" etc.  

 

As to why PWK picked stuff you would need to ask Jim in the Ask The Historian thread to see if he knows why on a particular part. He may have run across something in the archives, or personal knowledge from the 70s going forward. He may have picked the part(s). 

 

As to the current replacement parts, the current crossover networks, there is only one person who knows how he got to where he wanted to be on original sound and performance. He isn't available probably until the beginning of next year. So please, don't speculate about what he did. It's the last time I'm going to ask.

 

 

[Travis In Austin]

@Deang and @captainbeefheart So we (what am I saying, you guys) talked about some of the technical measurements of three brands of caps:

 

1. Dayton

2. Tecate

3. Sonicap

 

I'm not even up to speed on if they were identical inner materials or different. But they had a different ESR/DF (slightly). 

 

Will they sound different to someone with average hearing they they go onto the board and are hooked up?. Not better, worse, just different. The average Joe, not Deano's golden ears. 

[Travis In Austin]

From a website in Europe. @Deang or @captainbeefheart is this all accurate, in general (not Klipsch speakers specifically)?

 

Choosing capacitors for crossover networks

The types of capacitors that are commonly used for audio applications include ceramic, electrolytic and film capacitors. These types of capacitors differ in design, construction and performance characteristics. It is usually important to consider the unique needs of your audio application when selecting a capacitor.

Aluminium electrolytic capacitors come in a variety of designs but they are not widely used in audio applications. However, the characteristics of these components make them a suitable choice for some audio applications. When operated at a high voltage and high frequency, the temperature of an electrolytic capacitor can increase rapidly. As such, it is important to consider the temperature characteristics of a capacitor when selecting a capacitor for a crossover network.

 

Some electrolytic capacitors, for example non-polar electrolytic capacitors, produce distortions and are unsuitable for audio ac applications. Moreover, the high dissipation factor of these components can cause extreme heating in components. Overheating shortens the service life of a component and lowers the overall performance of a circuit.

For special miniature designs such as mobile phones, music players, hearing aids also tantalum/NbO capacitors can be considered, providing excellent audio performance with high stability and reliability. Nevertheless, these are polar devices that has to be considered in the design and thus not preferred in many applications.

 

Ceramic capacitors have a broad range of applications in today’s audio systems. However, their performance characteristics make them unsuitable for use in crossover networks. To start with, these components are susceptible to microphonic effects. This occurs when a ceramic capacitor converts mechanical vibrations into electrical signals. These unwanted electrical signals can significantly distort audio signals.

 

The quality of sound produced by an audio circuit is greatly dependent on the audio frequency response of capacitors used. In general, ceramic capacitors have poor audio frequency response. Moreover, the low insulation resistance and relatively high equivalent series resistance of ceramic capacitors make them unsuitable for crossover networks.

Film capacitors are widely used in audio circuits for a wide range of applications. For the optimum performance of a crossover network, film capacitors with low dielectric absorption and equivalent series resistance are commonly used. The characteristics of film capacitors make them the number one choice for audio applications. It is common for circuit designers to use a combination of different types of capacitors.

[Travis In Austin]

Dean, when you have a chance, I would really like your review of the Tecate caps in a format similar to the one below:

 

Sonic Craft Sonicap GEN-I MKP 220VDC - 5% tolerance

Technical specifications (according to manufacturer): "The Sonicap is well balanced and true to the source. The word neutral is so loosely (and incorrectly) used that we prefer the term balanced. While capacitors suffer from more noise (high distortion) than most audio components, the Sonicap exhibits very low noise and parasitics. The presentation is rich in harmonics, warm, without the slightest loss of detail retrieval! As a matter of fact, the micro-dynamics of the Sonicap is unmatched by anything close to its price range. All Sonicaps are tested at twice their rated voltage. The Sonicap meets or exceeds several Mil-specs. Dissipation Factor is typically better than 0.02% @ 1kHz. The Sonicap leads are tinned solid copper (high purity). Tolerances are typically better than 5%. Custom values and tighter tolerances are available. For the mods, which require a smooth presentation “unlike” that, produced by capacitors where dielectric breakdown ("self healing") is an acceptable (admirable) attribute. For the tweak who's system is well balanced and does not require "colouration band aids". For the hobbyist on a budget. Whether it is a power supply bypass, coupling, or speaker application, the Sonicap will be there!"

Sound: Compared to a standard Mundorf M-Cap they are more transparent and clearer with lots more depth. Putting a 0,01uF Vishay MKP1837 parallel to them (a good tweak for nearly any capacitor) can create even more detail and separation! They reveal micro-information in a way that reminds me of a Hovland Musicap but without the Hovland loudness effect. I didn't find them to mix well with other caps - a 50/50 mix with a standard Mundorf M-Cap gave me the funny sensation of listening to two different cap's at the same time. I can advise them if you are looking for a high-end cap but are on a relatively tight budget. Quite nice 🙂

Verdict: 8,5

Super PP capacitor (SPP) MKP 400VDC - 5% tolerance

Technical specifications (according to manufacturer): "5 layers Composite dielectric, Super low DF."

Sound: First of all they need a much longer burn-in time than most capacitors, in the beginning they are rather aggressive. After burn-in I still find the top-end over-etched which gives it a slightly artificial treble. They are well detailed but I find the midrange a little under exposed, maybe they would work well in a dull sounding speaker. Spatiality is good, probably due to the high-lighted top-end and this also gives them a tidy charater with good overview of what's happening all around the sound-stage. Separation is only average but considering their relatively low price they perform quite well. The top end is clean and slightly warmish at the same time.

Verdict: 8+

[Travis In Austin]

Just now, Travis In Austin said:

Dean, when you have a chance, I would really like your review of the Tecate caps in a format similar to the one below:

You obviously know I'm not serous.

[KT88]

15 hours ago, Aoran994 said:

as im reading , i think the dayton could be my first choice as i like a balanced speaker, and i could save some money, just for info here is my 1969 all originals klipschorn

 

Your Khorns looks in very good shape, a fantastic catch. Was it in your family or did you have just very good luck finding them? If so, did you find them in your area or did they travel across Italy to your place?

[Aoran994]

1 minute ago, KT88 said:

 

Your Khorns looks in very good shape, a fantastic catch. Was it in your family or did you have just very good luck finding them?

yes they were restored by the previous owner, i bought them 1.5 year ago, the previous owner had very good expierience with the khorn as he did as well 2 diy pairs, soo i bought them without thinking as i know the care he took from them

[KT88]

2 minutes ago, Aoran994 said:

yes they were restored by the previous owner, i bought them 1.5 year ago, the previous owner had very good expierience with the khorn as he did as well 2 diy pairs, soo i bought them without thinking as i know the care he took from them

 

Thank you very much. You answered faster than I added to my question😀: did you find them in your area or did they travel across Italy to your place?

[Aoran994]

9 minutes ago, KT88 said:

 

Thank you very much. You answered faster than I added to my question😀: did you find them in your area or did they travel across Italy to your place?

i did travel to near venice! soo i did something like 4.30+4.30 hours drive , when i saw them i didnt miss the chance, here in italy the klipschorn often they were founded in the mohogany color and they were strong for my living room, soo when i saw this occasion i closed the deal immediately,when i first heard them my jaw dropped, the impressive dynamic range from a classic orchestra piece really impressioned me

[KT88]

11 minutes ago, Aoran994 said:

i did travel to near venice! soo i did something like 4.30+4.30 hours drive , when i saw them i didnt miss the chance, here in italy the klipschorn often they were founded in the mohogany color and they were strong for my living room, soo when i saw this occasion i closed the deal immediately,when i first heard them my jaw dropped, the impressive dynamic range from a classic orchestra piece really impressioned me

 

Is it allowed to ask what you have paid? BTW it was quite a nice area to drive if you must not take the Autostrada?

[Aoran994]

3 minutes ago, KT88 said:

 

Is it allowed to ask what you have paid? BTW it was quite a nice area to drive if you must not take the Autostrada?

i paid them 4.7k restaured, and from my home had to take the autostrada all the way up

[henry4841]

I still say a modern polyester or polypropylene capacitor from a reliable source is more than adequate in a crossover network. Yes you can find specific caps with better numbers but you are not going to hear any significant difference with better numbers from a good enough point. Stick with what Klipsch recommends unless you just want to play with capacitors and crossover networks.  

[Deang]

6 hours ago, Travis In Austin said:

@Deang and @captainbeefheart So we (what am I saying, you guys) talked about some of the technical measurements of three brands of caps:

 

1. Dayton

2. Tecate

3. Sonicap

 

I'm not even up to speed on if they were identical inner materials or different. But they had a different ESR/DF (slightly). 

 

Will they sound different to someone with average hearing they they go onto the board and are hooked up?. Not better, worse, just different. The average Joe, not Deano's golden ears. 

 

That was kind of the point of the discussion. It was in the earlier posts - comparing numbers from the data sheets and measurements for the different dielectrics. Sonicap and Dayton are polypropylene. Tecate are Mylar. Klipsch has been using Mylar since the early 70's. We are trying to show the OP, and anyone following along, how the different dielectric material impacts ESR, DF, etc. These measurements directly influence the voltage curves and transfer function. This much I learned directly from Roy, which is why he asked me to use Tecate, and to have Universal Transformer bring back the T2A, T4A autoformers and various coils. I even had to request a certain steel type for the laminations, as these also effect the voltages.

 

Yes, it's audible, as Jim from JEM discovered, along with many others, who mostly just quietly fix things because they don't want to be caught in the middle of this quagmire. 

 

Klipsch doesn't make their engineering processes public, so we are often left to speculate. It's not a slam on Klipsch, just the reality of it. No one was being critical, so I don't understand the heavy hand.

 

Well, I'm out. I no longer have the emotional bandwidth for this.

[henry4841]

8 hours ago, Travis In Austin said:

Will they sound different to someone with average hearing they they go onto the board and are hooked up?. Not better, worse, just different. The average Joe, not Deano's golden ears. 

You are absolutely correct IMHO. Average Joe will not. There is a certain level of performance needed in a capacitor for a crossover and as I have stated previously all modern poly caps from a reliable source will meet or exceed that point. There are very good amplifiers for $1000. and then there are those for $1,000,000. Will there be a remarkable difference in sound for the average Joe? I think not. 

[billybob]

It just makes it all the more remarkable that with the tools and parts available early on that Klipsch made such likeable, desirable products.