K402 Horn Puzzler Help

[babadono]

When I got my Tads and Jubes and tried to make them mate I couldn't figure out how it was intended they go together...I over thunk it too. Ended up tapping all the way through the snout flange of the Tad so i could put bolts all the way through and then into the 402 like the K69. Clearly with hindsight the intention was to put bolts the other way through the 402 and let them bottom out in the flange of the Tad. There is one than one way to skin a cat.

[Coytee]

Since it's bad karma for me to be into skinning cats...

 

What I did and was going to describe...

 

I discovered (as you did) the bolts go through the flange first, then into the TAD.  What to do...

 

I didn't want to drill out the TAD so bought the bolts needed.  Set the 402 more or less, leaning to the side.  I put the four bolts through it and this is where it got a bit testy.  Had to hold the TAD while threading one of the bolts....  got it started, went to second, got it started, third, fourth...

 

I had bad angles to use anything I had other than an open wrench (would have been nice to have a ratcheting box or combo wrench... but, didn't.

 

I couldn't tighten one bolt all the way so I had to incrementally tighten one a bit, go to next, tighten it a bit, go to next....  I had to essentially bring the two parts together parallel and it was a pain in the  hiney.  

 

It would have been easier to just drill them out however, I did save my cat!

 

[Westerml]

Awesome cat! Thanks you guys….sorry for the confusion. I am sure it’s me not you.
 

Coytee, my issue is when trying to use a 4-bolt driver mounted at the plate, without the snout, mated closely to the horn with bolts going through the plate (as typical) and attaching to the horn 4-bolt pattern, the mounting plate dogs (that bolt to the verticals) hit the driver when facing toward the driver. It is a non issue when using the snout because the snout fits inside of the plate mounting dogs. I am not sure what to call the plate pieces (dogs) that mount to the vertical stands. Using the term flanges was confusing. All I know is when I flip it over so the dogs face away from the driver allowing the driver to mount flush on the plate the 4-hole pattern does not match up. It’s also tough to get the entire bolt hole pattern scribed to drill plate with new holes because you cannot get to it from underneath since the horn flare blocks the hole. Thanks for the discussion….I am always hoping I am missing something and most likely am…:)

[mikebse2a3]

On 12/18/2022 at 8:49 AM, Westerml said:

Anyone have a K402 bolt pattern/opening template made from your horns. For driver side? I have to flip my driver mounting plate/bracket around to mount 4-bolt drivers without snout. With all the holes in the plate none line up with 4-bolt pattern when flipped over. Want it to be exact and trying to mark holes, etc. from underside is difficult. Easy enough to create one from my horns but figured I would check. Thanks

 

I believe the following information will give you what you need to know to layout and drill your mounting plate to allow reverse mounting of the plate/flange for larger diameter compression drivers.

 

Note: These pictures show a mounting plate/stand for the first generation K402 and the original 4-slotted drill pattern of the mounting plate which looks similar to yours. I then drilled additional holes to allow for the 2nd generation K402 horn bolt pattern as well as allowing the mounting bracket flanges to be oriented toward the horn versus the driver. If you look at the pictures of how I laid out the angle pattern for drilling the mounting bracket you can see that the set of holes you already have will match up with either the (18-degree, 108-degree, 198-degree, 288-degree pattern) or the (72-degree, 162-degree, 252-degree, 342-degree pattern) and you will just need to drill out the pattern opposite of what you currently have. You might also note that the patterns are exactly (+/-)18-degree off the (0-degree, 90-degree, 180-degree, 270-degree reference centering lines.

 

I hope you find this helpful,

miketn

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Deang]

Very nifty tool!

[Khornukopia]

On 12/18/2022 at 5:49 AM, Westerml said:

With all the holes in the plate none line up with 4-bolt pattern when flipped over. Want it to be exact and trying to mark holes, etc. from underside is difficult.

Put your two mounting brackets face to face (mirror image) and then scribe your marks for the new hole locations.

[Khornukopia]

9 hours ago, Westerml said:

I am looking for some mounting plates for my K402’s to use 4 bolt drivers where the plate attachment flanges face toward the horn (and not toward the driver) and line up with the 4 bolt holes on my K402.

I also had to flip my mounting brackets and redrill them because the Celestion Axi-2050 drivers are much wider than the brackets.

[The Dude]

9 hours ago, Coytee said:

I'm still having issues comprehending....  (my wife rolls her eyes about now at me....)

 

Flanges facing toward the horn verses driver....

 

Huh?

 

Am I missing it in the (your) pictures above?  I would think they fit one way and that's it.  I'm clearly missing something.

The snout on the 1132 extends it out so the wildest part of the driver doesn't interfere with the mounting plate.  I had to flip mine around to get the k69(b&c version) to mount to the k402.  Though some of a struggle, I was able to align everything with a socket and tighten it down.

[Westerml]

THANK YOU….THANK YOU…..THANK YOU!… @mikebse2a3  just what I needed.

 

Next big question @Khornukopia as I begin my K402 journey……after I try my DE750TN’s ….are the axi-2050’s the (never ending) end game. And I can say is at this stage the K1132’s sound pretty darn good..   hmmm

 

thanks all

[MMurg]

As a Heritage Jubilee owner, I can tell you that the Axi2050 is a crazy good driver.  With the Jubilee DSP the response is flat out to 20 kHz+.  And with it going down to 300 Hz, you have a lot of flexibility in setting the crossover point.  That's why I purchased one to use in the center speaker for the Jubilee.

[Islander]

Keep in mind that these aren't cylinder head bolts.  I don't know whether the new drivers come with recommended torque numbers, but they need just enough to keep them fixed in position and not much more, especially if there are any plastic parts involved.  Whenever it's practical, I prefer to depend on Nyloc nuts, rather than split washers.  If the plastic crushes over time, the split washers loosen, while the Nyloc nuts do not.

 

Just a suggestion.

[Coytee]

Just had an idea...

 

With respect to the 'Table Lamp" horn....  you could just convert the K402 to a street lamp.  Slap a sodium bulb in it and watchout.

[Islander]

3 minutes ago, Coytee said:

Just had an idea...

 

With respect to the 'Table Lamp" horn....  you could just convert the K402 to a street lamp.  Slap a sodium bulb in it and watchout.

 

Yes, you too can make your living room look like a HIGH CRIME AREA, complete with authentic hi-vis lighting.  When it comes to mood lighting, that's not a mood that makes your living space a comfortable refuge from the outside day-to-day concerns, lol.  But hey, to everyone their own mood in their own place.

 

This is is sent in a spirit of humour, so please take it that way.  Happy listening!

[grendel23]

14 hours ago, Khornukopia said:

I also had to flip my mounting brackets and redrill them because the Celestion Axi-2050 drivers are much wider than the brackets.

I had the same issue and just made new mounting plates.

 

[Khornukopia]

21 hours ago, mikebse2a3 said:

... I hope you find this helpful,

miketn

 

 

 

 

That is a cool tool.

[mikebse2a3]

On 12/19/2022 at 10:29 PM, Khornukopia said:

Put your two mounting brackets face to face (mirror image) and then scribe your marks for the new hole locations.

 

@Westerml This wasn’t an option in my situation (with first generation K402 and it’s mounting bracket that I started with and I wanted to flip the mounting plate and convert to second generation K402 bolt pattern) but this would be the simplest and best option in your situation I believe.

 

miketn 🙂

[mikebse2a3]

On 12/20/2022 at 12:34 PM, Islander said:

Keep in mind that these aren't cylinder head bolts.  I don't know whether the new drivers come with recommended torque numbers, but they need just enough to keep them fixed in position and not much more, especially if there are any plastic parts involved.  Whenever it's practical, I prefer to depend on Nyloc nuts, rather than split washers.  If the plastic crushes over time, the split washers loosen, while the Nyloc nuts do not.

 

Just a suggestion.

 

Nyloc nuts are a good option but I have to say I’ve not experienced any issues using split washers and common sense on the torque needed for a good gasket seal is all that is needed.

 

I like to use Stainless Steel Hardware to prevent rust issues long term and especially with expensive drivers.

 

Often I find my preference is to use Stainless Steel Allen Set Screws of 25mm and 30mm lengths in drivers requiring M6-1.0 (6mm x 1.0mm x Length Needed) hardware.

 

miketn

 

 

 

 

 

[Islander]

13 hours ago, mikebse2a3 said:

 

Nyloc nuts are a good option but I have to say I’ve not experienced any issues using split washers and common sense on the torque needed for a good gasket seal is all that is needed.

 

I like to use Stainless Steel Hardware to prevent rust issues long term and especially with expensive drivers.

 

Often I find my preference is to use Stainless Steel Allen Set Screws of 25mm and 30mm lengths in drivers requiring M6-1.0 (6mm x 1.0mm x Length Needed) hardware.

 

miketn

 

 

 

 

 

 

WARNING:  THIS LONG EXPLANATION WILL TAKE YOU A FEW MINUTES TO READ.  After you do, you may say, "Well, that's a few minutes that I'll never get back."   You've been warned.

 

 

Mike, those stainless steel Allen head machine screws and nuts seem like ideal hardware for the job.  I was probably over-thinking things, in that the amount of vibration encountered is actually minimal, when compared to what an engine produces.  On my bike, there are the outer fairing panels, which mount to brackets on the frame.  There's a little bit of misalignment here and there.  You might run into something similar with a turntable dust cover, so that you need to adjust the hinges carefully to get the cover to sit straight at the front.  That doesn't cause any issues.  However, on the bike there are a couple of small black inner panels which have to be secured very carefully, or within a few weeks or months they'll crack, which is annoying, because the new parts may be unavailable.

 

These panels look a bit like an elbow pad, one that runs from the area around your elbow to halfway along your forearm, so roughly 10-12"/25-30 cm long.  The one on the left includes the mounts for the choke knob and the Reserve fuel switch, so it looks funny if it's missing.  These panels are secured by three (or maybe four.  I don't see the bike everyday anymore.) 6 mm Phillips head screws.  The issue is that the panels arrive a bit warped, so that when you tighten a couple of the screws, the panel might not touch the other mounting spots, so that when you tighten at those spots, you're puling the panels down and putting some stress on them.  This should not matter, but it does, because that's where a crack will soon appear.

 

Accordingly, the mounting spots that are a bit high above their mounting plate get shimmed with one to three flat washers between the mounting plate and the panel, so that when you tighten down all the screws, there is absolutely no stress on the panels anywhere.  It's weird that a body panel would need to be "tuned" at each fastener location to prevent it from cracking due to the combination of stress and high-frequency vibration (900 to 11,750 rpm/Hertz, while the greatest amplitude of vibration is around 4500 rpm/Hertz), but after cracking a few panels, it was no joke.  Since this issue did not affect every one of this model in the showroom, I can only surmise that the original panels were not warped, but the later ones were.  Worn-out dies or stampers?  Who knows?

 

I don't know what the other FZ750 owners did, but I would gently tighten a couple of screws, then check for clearance or pressure at the remaining locations.  Washers would be added or subtracted as needed, then the screws would be snugged down, and I'd ride away happily, with one more annoyance/distraction out of the way.  After owning and riding a particular bike for more than ten years, with the major issues long since cleared up, the minor things now shift themselves to your front of mind.

 

So that's the long explanation that covers why I considered vibration to be such an issue when securing the K402 horn to its mounting brackets.  It's an example of how things that are a problem in one application/situation are sometimes not a problem in another case.

 

'Nuff said!

[Khornukopia]

Using Nyloc nuts to secure a compression driver to a horn could be problematic during removal, as the Nyloc will grip the studs and the studs will unscrew from the driver, causing an awkward condition at the tight wrenching space around the horn flange, especially the K-402. Yes, you could use Loctite thread locker on the studs into the driver, but that is all a bit excessive for the application.

[Khornukopia]

On 12/20/2022 at 5:39 AM, Westerml said:

THANK YOU….THANK YOU…..THANK YOU!… @mikebse2a3  just what I needed.

 

Next big question @Khornukopia as I begin my K402 journey……after I try my DE750TN’s ….are the axi-2050’s the (never ending) end game. And I can say is at this stage the K1132’s sound pretty darn good..   hmmm

 

thanks all

 

On 12/20/2022 at 10:03 AM, MMurg said:

As a Heritage Jubilee owner, I can tell you that the Axi2050 is a crazy good driver.  With the Jubilee DSP the response is flat out to 20 kHz+.  And with it going down to 300 Hz, you have a lot of flexibility in setting the crossover point.  That's why I purchased one to use in the center speaker for the Jubilee.

 

@Westerml, Yes the Axi-2050 are really good. It seems that they are almost always sold-out, but your K1132's should be easy to live with while you wait. 😄