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Radial vs Axial Capacitor Help


Jhakobe

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10 hours ago, Deang said:

@chuckears I believe if the capacitors are having issues, ANY new set of capacitors will net a noticeable change. So, why not use parts that put them to factory spec first to see where you’re really at. It sure leaves a lot of money left over for other things.

 

...this is precisely how I am proceeding with the new-to-me Chorus II's.

Looking back at the "mods" on my Fortes, that seemed the simplest solution to me at the time, and the Crites boards had great praise among those who had gone that route.  Originalists would likely ding me for switching out the red and black plastic binding posts with Cardas, but they certainly did no harm.  I'm hanging on to the Fortes indefinitely, and have no regrets with the changes I made to them over a decade ago - they still sound better than any other new speakers that cost 4X more.

 

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After several trial fittings, this is what I ended up with due to the cap sizes being massively(!) larger than the original NPEs. The cap lead extension wire is solid 18ga copper connected with the j-hook method. Caps are held with small piece of double-sided tape (good to 250f) between the caps and a zip tie. Weight is supported by the inner-most cap and the soldered leads themselves. Thoughts on this before I tear into the other speaker?

3773DD63-085F-48E1-8150-0DEA91A72610.jpeg

Edited by Jhakobe
To clarify tape is between capacitors, punctuation.
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8 hours ago, henry4841 said:

A properly made capacitor should not do this and anyone that favors rolled off highs should consider doing so electronically and adjustable, tone controls and not at the speaker using a capacitor in the crossover.  

 

That mindset is what someone else used and it ultimately resulted in a lot of confusion, which still persists. So, I don’t agree. 
 

The specifications and resultant behavior of the parts are used in the voicing process. If that causes a slightly tipped down response, then it is by design, and the prerogative of the manufacturer.

 

As for tube amps, many prefer a minimalist approach to audio and don’t want or use equalizers and tone controls. Many don’t even use preamps.

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1 hour ago, Jhakobe said:

After several trial fittings, this is what I ended up with due to the cap sizes being massively(!) larger than the original NPEs. The cap lead extension wire is solid 18ga copper connected with the j-hook method. Caps are held with small piece of double-sided tape (good to 250f) between the caps and a zip tie. Weight is supported by the inner-most cap and the soldered leads themselves. Thoughts on this before I tear into the other speaker?

3773DD63-085F-48E1-8150-0DEA91A72610.jpeg

@Deang

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7 minutes ago, Deang said:

 

That mindset is what someone else used and it ultimately resulted in a lot of confusion, which still persists. So, I don’t agree. 
 

The specifications and resultant behavior of the parts are used in the voicing process. If that causes a slightly tipped down response, then it is by design, and the prerogative of the manufacturer.

 

As for tube amps, many prefer a minimalist approach to audio and don’t want or use equalizers and tone controls. Many don’t even use preamps.

I'm on board for resisting tone controls, especially the too-broad "bass" and "treble" - they are overused or misused to solve problems either with the speakers, or the room.  My system has never sounded as good for music-listening as it did when I had a passive preamp made by the same company I prefer for amplifiers (now defunct, and folded into Conrad-Johnson) - McCormack.

HOWEVER, since I expanded my entire system to include home theater - I don't have the space to have more than one system - I have used first a notch filter for my subs to tame the room resonances, then more recently used the room response kit and integrated ARC Genesis system that came with my Anthem processor.  This applies corrections for room responses after running sweeps of all the channels, and has brought greater clarity to music and video content. 
There are still some recordings that sound better to me 2-channel only - and I can toggle the room-corrections to hear which I like better.

 

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1 hour ago, Jhakobe said:

After several trial fittings, this is what I ended up with due to the cap sizes being massively(!) larger than the original NPEs. The cap lead extension wire is solid 18ga copper connected with the j-hook method. Caps are held with small piece of double-sided tape (good to 250f) between the caps and a zip tie. Weight is supported by the inner-most cap and the soldered leads themselves. Thoughts on this before I tear into the other speaker?

3773DD63-085F-48E1-8150-0DEA91A72610.jpeg


Golly - these caps are a lot larger than the ones I'm using to replace the existing ones on my Chorus's - not the JEM kit, I'm assuming.

 

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14 minutes ago, chuckears said:


Golly - these caps are a lot larger than the ones I'm using to replace the existing ones on my Chorus's - not the JEM kit, I'm assuming.

 

Yeah, not real happy about the size. They are the only ones I could find that had the same tolerance and capacitance as the originals. I’d of happily found and used NPEs if available. Maybe I should reach out to JEM and see if they have any if this is not a good idea. 

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Those values would have been electrolytics.

 

I see Klipsch is now using mylars on the large values in new models. They would be larger than a comparable electrolytic too.

 

What I can’t find is a thread on here from a decade ago where one of the esteemed members backed up his assertion that replacing electrolytics with a different dielectric has a similar effect as replacing a mylar with a polypropylene. Reactances are different so the resultant sound is altered.

 

 

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On 12/20/2022 at 2:35 PM, Deang said:

I will use this thread to document the work using pictures. 
 

People deciding to do this should have decent desoldering/soldering skills, and be prepared to do some out of the box thinking. Replacement parts rarely just fall into place. 

 

And be prepared to spend a lot of time to get things done nicely.  The first time you do a job, it takes a while to learn what needs to be done (layout, parts, etc.) so be ready to spend some time to get a professional looking result. 

 

 

2 hours ago, Jhakobe said:

After several trial fittings, this is what I ended up with due to the cap sizes being massively(!) larger than the original NPEs. The cap lead extension wire is solid 18ga copper connected with the j-hook method. Caps are held with small piece of double-sided tape (good to 250f) between the caps and a zip tie. Weight is supported by the inner-most cap and the soldered leads themselves. Thoughts on this before I tear into the other speaker?

3773DD63-085F-48E1-8150-0DEA91A72610.jpeg

 

Here was my solution to big caps in the Chorus IIs:  Just before I installed the final caps.  Or ordered for several speakers and was short a few caps so I was waiting to check capacitance and match pairs. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

IMG_3105.JPG

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6 minutes ago, tigerwoodKhorns said:

 

And be prepared to spend a lot of time to get things done nicely.  The first time you do a job, it takes a while to learn what needs to be done (layout, parts, etc.) so be ready to spend some time to get a professional looking result. 

 

 

 

Here was my solution to big caps in the Chorus IIs:  Just before I installed the final caps.  Or ordered for several speakers and was short a few caps so I was waiting to check capacitance and match pairs. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

IMG_3105.JPG

 

Where do you end up placing this board in the cabinets?  Surely it isn't going to fit back onto the terminal cup...

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1 minute ago, chuckears said:

 

Where do you end up placing this board in the cabinets?  Surely it isn't going to fit back onto the terminal cup...

I glued two 1/2" strips of wood to the bottom of the cab and put screws in.  I also made a jumper from the plate to the X-over.

 

I have done this in other speakers.  This took a huge amount of time. 

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16 minutes ago, geoff. said:

Those values would have been electrolytics.

 

I see Klipsch is now using mylars on the large values in new models. They would be larger than a comparable electrolytic too.

 

What I can’t find is a thread on here from a decade ago where one of the esteemed members backed up his assertion that replacing electrolytics with a different dielectric has a similar effect as replacing a mylar with a polypropylene. Reactances are different so the resultant sound is altered.

 

 

There’s a lot on here and other audio forums discussing the use of equal value but different construction capacitors and I’ve tried to read through what I could. And while I would not claim to understand all of what was read, it seemed most appropriate for me to try and replace the NPEs with NPEs. Not being able to find them, locating something with a tight tolerance and the same value was the next logical step (TBD if that was the correct move). Ideally the goal is to restore the speakers to their original sound (not some “upgrade”). That goal is quickly changing to be a restoration that gets as close as reasonably possible.

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2 hours ago, Jhakobe said:

Yeah, not real happy about the size. They are the only ones I could find that had the same tolerance and capacitance as the originals. I’d of happily found and used NPEs if available. Maybe I should reach out to JEM and see if they have any if this is not a good idea. 

The electrolytic is parallel to the woofer so not in the signal path. FWIW, Roy had said to use an electrolytic and not go to a film or poly cap as it would not make a difference ( I am assuming the last part).  I just went with electrolytic from Parts Express.

 

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4 hours ago, chuckears said:

I'm on board for resisting tone controls, especially the too-broad "bass" and "treble" - they are overused or misused to solve problems either with the speakers, or the room.

 

I do not use tone controls and have not in years but many do. If you have everything dialed in correctly no manipulating of the sound is required either with tone controls or capacitors that intentionally roll of the highs. A properly designed capacitor should have a data sheet proving it meets its intended value. Nothing more or less. If it meets it specification and the value selected is true it should not manipulate the sound beyond what it is supposed to. Show me a data sheet or I will pass on any capacitor. 

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1 hour ago, tigerwoodKhorns said:

The electrolytic is parallel to the woofer so not in the signal path. FWIW, Roy had said to use an electrolytic and not go to a film or poly cap as it would not make a difference ( I am assuming the last part).  I just went with electrolytic from Parts Express.

 

An electrolytic should not be used in the signal path but is acceptable as a filter trap, notch filter, when a high value is required. A film cap would be a better alternative but doubtful most could tell a difference. You can find non-polar electrolytics in cheaper speakers but I hope never to see them in the signal path of a Klipsch speaker. There are technical reasons for saying this. 

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-2 with 50 mph gusts here in Dayton. Most things are closed with widespread power outages. No mail today and probably won’t get anything tomorrow either. I actually don’t expect anything to show up from USPS until Tuesday, since Monday is a Federal holiday. 

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7 hours ago, geoff. said:

What I can’t find is a thread on here from a decade ago where one of the esteemed members backed up his assertion that replacing electrolytics with a different dielectric has a similar effect as replacing a mylar with a polypropylene. Reactances are different so the resultant sound is altered.


ESR @1kHz is about the same as a Mylar. 
 

 

 

32AD4AEE-EFB1-4009-9A69-0306F1012605.jpeg

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