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Tangent T-5000 Refurbish/Rebuild


TimBo

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Hello all,

 

 I got lucky 17 years ago and picked up a working set of T-5000's from the auction site for $105 and after an 8 hour round trip drive, they have sat and played beautifully in my living room.

I had a crossover fail 3 years ago and once I found Bob Crites website, thanks to this forum, it put me on the path of upgrades and improvements. 

I have enjoyed them thus far and every recommendation made from this forum to use Bob Crites parts have made a huge improvement. But there was always the "roar" that came from the thin boxes, 3/4" soundboard and 5/8" sides and rear panels, that I just could not overlook any longer. I am in the process of refurbishing and/or rebuilding them to, hopefully, help them reproduce a cleaner sound at high volume playback.

 Here is what I purchased and have been listening to prior to the cabinet modifications I'm now in process of making.

Bob Crites T-5000 crossovers, now called "Gold"

Bob Crites CD76TiM Titanium Tweeter Diaphragms

Bob Crites CW1230 Woofers

New midrange Diaphragms.

 At the time of the early fixes, I also added 80 mil butyl sound damping to the horns.

 

What I've done to only one of the cabinets as of today.

 

Added t-nuts to all screw holes. Many threaded holes were so close to the speaker hole that the wood was beginning to give way. 

Used thinned white glue in all seams and then used hot glue over all seams to ensure air tightness.

Installed 80 mil butyl sound damping sheets to the inside of the sides and rear panels.

Made all new gaskets.

Added butyl rubber sound damping to the basket of the woofers and passive radiators.

Preparing to add 3/4" dowel rod bracing by using countersunk flathead screws from the outside to secure the braces. I didn't want to flex the thin walls and risk separating the panels by using a friction fit and glue. I actually have cut the braces 1/32" short to add the same effect but with the force pushing in instead of out.

 

I'll be replacing the foam with self-adhesive acoustic foam, and this is where I have questions.

How much should I add and where?

 

Thanks for all the previous input and any further assistance.

 

TimBo

 

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Edited by TimBo
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From the factory the speaker had two pieces of foam. Each piece was non-adhesive and were simply standing loose on the left and right of the cabinet. 

I'll replace them with the new S/A foam.

Should I also add the S/A foam to the rear panel?

 

TimBo

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You are likely going to have to do it sooner or later to find out. Would leave it out of rear at first long listening session. May decide not to.

Hope you feel better about all your work, including some bracing. Abit back recently another new member may have overfoamed and over braced.

Anyway, maybe your and other ears familiar will tell the difference, of course.

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I finally installed the braces and had a first A/B listen to the changes.

You can notice a lower output in bass BUT, BUT, that is only because the "roar" is no longer being produced by the cabinets. 

I prefer the new sound. It's much more balanced and the bass is much, much, more accurate.

I would describe the playback with the changes as more life like, especially the bass drum and bass guitar.

A good test for me was Michel Jackson's BAD album, Speed Demon and Liberian Girl are now clear and precise on the bass.

For the wife, her descriptive words were that it's more articulate and clear. Her youth was spent listening to very early rap and the boom sound is "normal" for her. What she did notice is, in her words, the loud voices no longer buried the cymbals.

I'll take this as a win and move forward to add these changes to the remaining speaker.

 

Here are pics of the added bracing.

 

TimBo

 

 

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  • 3 weeks later...

Nice, I need to do similar.  If in the budget, get some mass loaded vinyl.  Put that over the butyl.  Put acoustic foam over the MLV

You get much more dampening the more materials you put in them.  As resonance doesn't transfer well between different materials. The MLV also has foam on it to decouple it from the other materials.  Like an air gap in insulation.

Maybe put some MLV on the horns also. 

Every so often, open box or blemished MLV is sold on Amazon for cheap.  Once in the box you'll never see it.

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I considered the options of MLV and commercial vinyl tile but ended up going with the butyl due to its mass with an easy and permanent installation. I did use Kilz oil-based primer inside so the butyl would have a nonporous surface to adhere to. From what I've read of MLV, it works best if hung with an air gap. I guess any mass would help and would be a good option. As for multi layers, the acoustic foam I used has a solid film on the adhesive side that does add to the layering. But, as you said, more layers are always better. It's a fun project and is a lot more work than I had anticipated. The end result is rewarding. 

 The last thing I will try is to add one piece the original foam, mounted loosely which will be curved from side to side and above the tweeter. 

I know most say Klipsch speakers are bright but my experience with these is that the midrange was somewhat harsh and buried the tweeter. That harshness has been reeled in a great degree.

  I'm hoping that by adding the foam above the tweeter will help even more. Plus, it will aid in reducing standing waves a little more. The better option may be to add 1/2" wool felt instead of the original foam across the upper sides and top, but trying to buy high grade F11 felt in small orders is not the most cost-effective option.

 

Thank you.

TimBo

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I just got the dynomat knock off, Amazon brand.  That seems even heavier and with thicker foil.  Going to do the same with my 500s.  but doing 30 percent coverage. 

 

Ripped out some MLV from my car since I don't commute nearly as far anymore.  And MLV gets expensive. 

 

Going to do the back and front inside the cabinets, add wood bracing, and deaden the horns....replace caps or xover. 

 

Also may do an experiment with homemade MLV using yoga mat and foam flooring that I can get for free, from work. And ab the speakers.  

 

Probably will start a thread about it. 

Curious to what benefits you noticed from your efforts? 

 

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On 2/27/2023 at 4:47 PM, TimBo said:

 

Bob Crites T-5000 crossovers, now called "Gold"

Bob Crites CD76TiM Titanium Tweeter Diaphragms

Bob Crites CW1230 Woofers

New midrange Diaphragms.

 

what was wrong with the klipsch  woofers ,  and the midrange diaphragms 

 

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1 hour ago, Marvel said:

Might have be chwaper and easier to just have built new cabinets out of BB. They would be more solid and more closer have the Klipsch sound signature.

Definitely wouldn't be cheaper or easier.  Maybe if you have a wood shop.   I'm doing it to get by until I have the time to make new cabs. and planning on doing the same treatment to new cabs. Everything but the dynomat is reusable and transferable.

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19 hours ago, Got_Horns said:

Curious to what benefits you noticed from your efforts? 

 

 The biggest difference was two things. The midrange was not as harsh which allowed the tweeter to actually be heard and the bass is tighter. The bass is not as loud due to the "boom/roar" not being produced by the cabinets. I spent some time in bands and working with others in music and know the sound of a bass kick drum very well. The bass drum before the changes was what I call a boom and is now a thud sound, which it should be.

 

TimBo

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2 hours ago, OO1 said:

what was wrong with the klipsch  woofers ,  and the midrange diaphragms

 

 One of the original woofers had bottomed out several times due to the air leaks from stripped screws, loose panels, and broken gaskets. The cabinet being sealed actually damps the woofer against the passive radiator when played at very high volumes. The Denon I have will send 170 watts @ 20 - 20k with less than 1% distortion and I like it at reference level. That power level was enough to push the woofer to the bottom with the air leaks. The midranges are 30 years old and since I had already replaced everything with fresh drivers, I simply wanted it all to be fresh and not look back later wishing I had replaced them.

 

 TimBo

Edited by TimBo
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And Got Horns is right. There is the cost of building the cabinets and the fact that I would need a woodshop to build them in. I do not have access to a wood workshop at the present time. If I did have access to the equipment, I would have certainly built new cabinets.

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@Got_Horns

 

Don't forget to add the butyl to the woofer and passive baskets. I think adding it to the woofer was one of the things that helped tame the midrange.

Also, be careful when adding closed cell foam such as the yoga mat. Closed cell foam will subtract from the cabinet volume. The bracing is already a subtraction and adding any more materials, such as the closed cell foam, may not be the best move.

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36 minutes ago, TimBo said:

@Got_Horns

 

Don't forget to add the butyl to the woofer and passive baskets. I think adding it to the woofer was one of the things that helped tame the midrange.

Also, be careful when adding closed cell foam such as the yoga mat. Closed cell foam will subtract from the cabinet volume. The bracing is already a subtraction and adding any more materials, such as the closed cell foam, may not be the best move.

Definitely doing the butyl. 

 

Losing cabinet volume is my biggest concern.  While not ideal, it's just to get me by until I build new cabs.  I have leaks and such, so I'm hoping it will be an overall improvement.  If not I can take some material out.

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23 minutes ago, tigerwoodKhorns said:

@TimBo  170 WPC.  Are you using a Denon AVR5800? 

 

Yes,, I have a Denon AVR-5803 that I did some horse trading to acquire. The T-5000s love power and the Denon delivers. The Denon sound may be a contributor to the midrange being slightly more pronounced. I have not had the opportunity to try other receivers/amps but from what I've read about this unit the midrange is slightly elevated.

 I did purchase a miniDSP mic and when I have more free time this summer I'll try and learn how to use REW to do some measuring of the system. Plus I have KG-2.5s for my surrounds and a SVS SB-3000 for the 40hz and lower. I bought the mic to be able to better adjust the sub and surround. The added benefit will be to measure the actual playback from the T-5000s with the mods.

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8 minutes ago, TimBo said:

 

Yes,, I have a Denon AVR-5803 that I did some horse trading to acquire. The T-5000s love power and the Denon delivers. The Denon sound may be a contributor to the midrange being slightly more pronounced. I have not had the opportunity to try other receivers/amps but from what I've read about this unit the midrange is slightly elevated.

 I did purchase a miniDSP mic and when I have more free time this summer I'll try and learn how to use REW to do some measuring of the system. Plus I have KG-2.5s for my surrounds and a SVS SB-3000 for the 40hz and lower. I bought the mic to be able to better adjust the sub and surround. The added benefit will be to measure the actual playback from the T-5000s with the mods.

The 170 wpc gave it away.  Great receiver.  I use it to drive five Palladiums and have used it for Marten Django Xls.  Does a great job.  A $5 Phillips 3 device universal remote was  a great addition for volume and muting control if you want something more simple that does not eat batteries. 

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@tigerwoodKhorns

 

Wow, nice setup!

I use an old Logitech Harmony One with an IR repeater/extender to control the system. I actually have 3 of these remotes now that they are discontinued and the options from other manufactures is slim.  

 I had to do something to be able to have all the equipment, including a HTPC, usable for the wife. I have a Logitech K830 keyboard for the HTPC. Otherwise, I'd be listening to everything through the TV speakers :)

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