Driving RF-7iii and RC-64c for HT and Music, why is the midrange sounding thin?

[Opozian]

Before I get started, please forgive the inexperience you will likely detect in what I've written below.

 

I recently replaced my RP-600m-ii & RP-404c-ii with an rc64-iii and two new RF-7iiis. So far the switch has been a major improvement in the highs, as these tweeters really are a huge difference maker: they sound great! However, the midrange sounds... thinner. Although female vocals sound extraordinary, sometimes scratchier/mid to lower pitched male vocals simply do not come through in songs, almost at all.. I find myself struggling to even hear the lyrics whereas before that had never been a problem. Dialogue is also a little muddier in that range in movies. It's a little disturbing, and without considering break in time, the RP-600Mii and 404c-ii actually performed better out of the box (albeit ONLY) in the aforementioned range.

 

I'm wondering at a few things, and without getting into the dimensions and treatment of my room (which is of course a potential factor), I am curious as to whether I am either:

 

(A). Expecting too much out of these modest home theater towers that don't have a midrange horn to help it shine in the mids, or

 

(B). (which could be quite the elephant in the room) I am expecting far far too much out of my piece of junk Onkyo NR-676 which was more than capable of driving my previous mains and center, but is now with RF7-iii and rc64-iii severely underpowered, and is potentially creating a bottleneck in sound quality.

 

This is probably turning out to be a huge noob question, but the only reason I ask is because I have been lead to believe on these forums and by experts that the improvements which can be ascertained by upgrading speakers will far and away supersede the improvements which can be ascertained by upgrading an amplifier. And while this amplifier is underpowered for these speakers, I am detecting the problems which I mentioned at even the meekest volume levels, all the way up to the most I can get out of the amp.

 

So I am more or less looking for confirmation that, yes, my amp is just far too junk for the speakers that I bought and is potentially a major reason for the RF7-iii and RC64-iii sounding quite thin in the midrange.

 

For an additional note, I listen to three things mainly, and have tested so far with all three:

Movies: 5.2

Apple "Lossless" Stereo Music: 2.2

Apple Spatial Audio 5.2 (Vocals sometimes come through center channel).

 

Last note:

I am Bi-AMPing (not buy-wiring) the RF-7iiis with two sets of 9 gauge OFC (which I have been told similarly does nothing special on cheaper amps). Don't flame me for it

 

 

 

Edited July 25, 2024 by Opozian

[derrickdj1]

Need lots more info.  How large is the room, speaker setup in room, ?bi-amping(passive vs active).  I drove my RF 7 and & II's with a 25 watts tube and and 50 watt SS.  I also used 200 watt power amps.  The midrange should not be that weak.

[Ceptorman]

Eliminate the bi-amping and power the towers normally, make sure there are jumpers on the towers. While RP-600s are wonderful speakers, they are no match for RF7llls. There shouldn't even be a comparison.

[Opozian]

On 7/29/2024 at 10:21 PM, derrickdj1 said:

Need lots more info.  How large is the room, speaker setup in room, ?bi-amping(passive vs active).  I drove my RF 7 and & II's with a 25 watts tube and and 50 watt SS.  I also used 200 watt power amps.  The midrange should not be that weak.

• 13x16x9 foot room.
• Carpet, moderate amount of paintings and furniture.
• Speakers reside on the longer wall (16'), which is not insulated.
• Two double paned windows with double thick floor to ceiling curtains, and a cabinet bed (murphy bed) reside on the other 16' wall (insulated) across from the speakers.
• One hollow core door on 13' insulated wall on left.
• One hollow core door on 13' uninsulated wall on right.

 

Listening position is a couch with 3 seats that is closer to the window wall than the speaker wall.

 

• Onkyo NR-676   7.1 AVR

 

• 2 RF7iii's - 12' apart, front facing, not toed in or out. Have tried toe in and sound stage was wiped out as a result. Have not tried toe out because walls are too reflective.

 

• 1 RC64iii - Have yet to mount this above my TV. Currently using RP-404cii again for movies until I get this sorted out, as wall mounting the RC-64iii will be a challenge.

 

• 2 RP-1400SW - Floor placed on each side of the cabinet bed and rotated to get the ports as close to the listening position as possible to try and accomplish some sort of near-field effect.

 

• 2 RP 600mii - used for 5.2

If any more info is useful I am happy to provide. I can take pictures and/or upload a diagram.

 

I will eventually upgrade my AVR regardless, but I just want to know if I should do this sooner rather than later as a measure to improve the sound quality. I am looking at Marantz C50, and to use that for some time, and then eventually getting a quality power amp for at the very least the RF7s, but preferably for the RC64c as well. I have thought about doing an active bi-amp for all three speakers if necessary. 

 

So yes.. am I out of touch here? Am I just not liking the RF-7 sound? I have thought about selling these due to how little of an improvement they have been. Perhaps I'm missing something, expecting too much, or just using a bad amp/avr. (Onkyo-NR676, its a $200 AVR). I know onkyos are well known for overrating their AVRs wattage in recent times. 

 

Thanks for the help.

 

 

 

 

[wuzzzer]

How exactly are you bi-amping them?  Have you tried running a single set of speaker wire to each speaker, installing the jumpers and seeing how that sounds?

[Opozian]

On 7/29/2024 at 11:37 PM, Ceptorman said:

Eliminate the bi-amping and power the towers normally, make sure there are jumpers on the towers. While RP-600s are wonderful speakers, they are no match for RF7llls. There shouldn't even be a comparison.

 

On 7/31/2024 at 6:42 PM, wuzzzer said:

How exactly are you bi-amping them?  Have you tried running a single set of speaker wire to each speaker, installing the jumpers and seeing how that sounds?

 

I have done testing with no Bi-Amping. There is no noticeable difference. After some time my ears have gotten more used to these speakers. I like the RF7s. I wish I had a projector instead of a TV as the RC-64 is not as close to the RF7 sound as I had hoped.

 

I suppose in time I will see if better amplification will improve the sound. I cannot decide ahead of time whether there will be any impact at all.

[Ceptorman]

I went from powering my towers with a mid level AVR to separates with a 500x2 amp, the difference was night to day.