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Heresy I project


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23 hours ago, Deang said:

The woofer is clearly stamped “K-22”. The midrange is the Atlas K-55-V with original K-77 tweeters. The correct network for these parts is the Type E.  


The Type E2 was for the K-24, 4 ohm woofer. The Type E2 used a 4mH low pass coil with a 33uF shunt cap. Polarity for the midrange and tweeter was reversed. 

 

Agreed, Type E is correct for his drivers, but..
 

The type E2 was used on the later Heresy 1 that used the k52/k53 mid driver.  They still used a k22 woofer.

 

K24 is the Heresy II woofer and is 8ohm

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@KT88 Actually, yes, it was this thread!  Okay, thank you :) H

Well, the sound of the speaker is gorgeous, can't say if it's due to alnico as I didn't compare to the ferrite. But now, the crossover is back to Type E with 2uf mundorf removed and it's a whole different beast when the bullshit is gone. I'll see to only ship the K-77 then if you feel that the K-55-V doesn't need it yet. No idea why but the removal of the 33uf on the woofer also helped a lot the bass as well. 

 

 

They are lively and really enjoyable, I wouldn't say they are for all kind of music as they're extremly revealing of the sound. I missed the realism of horns (I had one horn speaker designed to reproduce concerts in Japan but age didn't do it justice and most of them are now in spare parts). I didn't feel that much the lack of bass all in all, sure it could go lower but I felt more like my own home needed to be actually much bigger, that's the first time even with big speakers that I have to care about the space and square meter of a home. 

 

They had an S engraved on the case so definitely 1978. 

 

The Type E2 was for a K-22-K which was 93db vs 95db K-22-E(F). 

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Type E looks very simple and elegant. The main thing is that you have the original T2A. Yes, I would go back to that Type E too. Another topic,  I've written good things about my new woofers and that the old K33E from 1977 from my LaScala sounded so muddy in the Klipschorn compared to the new woofers...

Others are welcome to give their opinion here. I have a guess. I never got the impression that the old K33Es sounded bad in the LaScala. Ok, if I put new woofers in there, it could be a big difference as well. But could it be that the woofers in the Klipschorn have to do much more work mechanically, so that a slackness in the suspension is much more audible than in the LaScala...or even without a horn, as in the Cornwall?

To apply the question to your heresy, could it be that in a heresy an old woofer still sounds good enough?

 

As for the K55V, I don't know if remagnetizing will do any more good than not. I just left it alone and it seems to sound good to me. I haven't found a single thread over the years where an aging magnet in a K55V has been a problem. But there are many threads about the deteriorating high-frequency response of the K77 Alnico. That's why I had them remagnetized (with a positive difference in the result).

 

About the internal wiring. I would use wire thickness that matches the original ones everywhere. Original are the ones on your photo of the K77 with the red and black stripes. The originals were tinned copper. I would use those in the original diameter. Roy Delgado once said that even the original cables have an influence on the correct total impedance and „thick“ bass cables are not neccessarily an improvement.

 

 

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@KT88 Yes, it actually is and so it mess way less with the sound, that's quite why I love some large band speakers actually as some doesn't need a crossover. Could it be that the woofers were actually tired or we improved the technology to make better speakers? All I know is that the K-33 is a mighty beast but maybe yours had an issue with the coil before you bought them. Normally, they go down to one ohm and a half in Khorn cabinets so it could be but something is odd about them being muddye. 

I am glad you enjoyed the change though ! 

 

Okay, I'll do the same with my K-55-V, probably just remove the surface little line of rust over the metal case and leave it. I'll try to upload a youtube video of the sound of the system. Okay, so I'll see then if I am gonna change the internal speakers at all actually if I have to match the impedance with new speakers. 

 

For now, I have to fix or redo the cabinets. And enjoy...

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1 hour ago, Knuck said:

@KT88 Yes, it actually is and so it mess way less with the sound, that's quite why I love some large band speakers actually as some doesn't need a crossover. Could it be that the woofers were actually tired or we improved the technology to make better speakers? All I know is that the K-33 is a mighty beast but maybe yours had an issue with the coil before you bought them. Normally, they go down to one ohm and a half in Khorn cabinets so it could be but something is odd about them being muddye. 

I am glad you enjoyed the change though ! 

 

Okay, I'll do the same with my K-55-V, probably just remove the surface little line of rust over the metal case and leave it. I'll try to upload a youtube video of the sound of the system. Okay, so I'll see then if I am gonna change the internal speakers at all actually if I have to match the impedance with new speakers. 

 

For now, I have to fix or redo the cabinets. And enjoy...

I told you that the old K33Es were borrowed from my 1977 LaScala. In the LaScala I always had the impression that they were ok. BTW these old K33E are electrically absolutely ok, both voice coils work well and the magnets are strong. The problem/wear is the suspension of the spider and the cone. I didn't know the 1973 Klipschorn, which was new to me, other than with these old K33Es from my LaScalas. The original K33V inside the Khorn had a woofer with a broken voice coil. So I couldn't hear it with them. It's my first Klipschorn without any comparison with any other. But in contrast to the brand new K33Es, the sound was limp. If you say that a Klipschorn has extreme impedances at some frequencies, lower than 2 ohms, then I would assume that in the Klipschorn they have to do much work or in other words they are loaded much more than the in a LaScala, which has a more moderate impedance curve.

What I wanted to say woth all this in the old post above is that your old K22 is probably still good because it is driven without a horn.

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My apologies then, however thank you for the information as I didn't think the spider nor cone could age even though it makes sense. 

Well, the Scala are made to work gentlier on the bass as they don't have the same bin, so not the same bass reproduction, they were designed to my understanding to have less limitations than the Khorns and so are kinder to the amplification as well. That's why it's strange to me when people says that Klipsch speakers can work well with poor amps, they don't need much watts, they need quality and a therefore a good transformer.

 

Yes, they do, I tried them on Conan the Barbarian ost and some others! It was a pleasure! 

 

Now, there is some play between the front pannel and the side pannel that I didn't see before to purchase : it was not in a very light area. That's why there are sealants inside the speakers but I want to fix this play and put back the external as brand new. It seems humidity made the cabinet to lose rigidity. 

 

Here are some recording of the Heresy playing few songs of Leonard Cohen. Maybe I could post some ost of Conan as the bass is not bad at all actually, quite impressive even. 

 

 

 

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It's true the microphone either is not the best and I didn't match input output sensivity of the preamp / power amp. 
 

It was just to give a taste of the sound, however, I totally agree that there are so many biais.

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BTW today I had the chance to remove the tweeters from my 1973 Klipschorn with the help of my son. You can't reach the two upper screws easily. That's why Klipsch has fitted drillings in an upper cross brace. Unfortunately, this strut was glued in the wrong way round on one speaker so that these holes were useless for the screwdriver. Well, we managed it. I removed the old solder from the K77, shortened the cables, stripped off some of the sheathing and re-soldered them, and also clipped off the cable lugs on the other side of the cables and re-soldered them. I had already done the same with the other contacts for bass, midhorn and xover. Today it was icing the cake. Believe it or not. There is a different openess and three-dimensional spatiality in the air. @Knuck, I would recommend the same for your Heresy. Be careful with the tweeter, only solder briefly, it must not get too hot so that nothing happens to the voice coil wire. It's more than a nuance, it's like taking a cloth off the speakers.

 

 

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A bit late for the reply, I saw the message but was too sick at the time.


I feel sorry for the issue you had with the screws. I do believe it as connections must be as newer now and will attempt it asap.

 

For now, the plan is to bring the Heresy to a wood worker who will reglue properly the boxes.

 

Thanks for the warning, @KT88! I'll see then for the tweeters, I had a stroke few years ago and lost some abilities so for this kind of meticulous work, I'll see how to make it. Probably my better half will handle it or we shall see. But the tip is definitely gonna be helpful ! 
 

Thanks for the pic of the inside of the Khorn, it's our final goal. Looks like it's birch solid wood or?

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Oh, I am so sorry for your stroke. We all don't know what the next day will bring. Soldering is a bit ambivalent. The process itself is quite simple. But it does take some experience to get it right. For example, choosing the right heat for the soldering iron. It is different for different jobs. I chose a relatively high 400 C for the tweeter cables. And I still have leaded solder from the nineties that I used, which is now banned for health reasons... so it was quite quick to liquefy the solder. As a result, less heat is distributed to the very fine soldered wires of the voice coil, which are somewhat removed from the leads. Incidentally, I left these fine connecting wires as they are. Theoretically, I could have vacuumed off the solder and reapplied it. But the risk of destroying something irrevocably is far too high.

 

The panels of the bass cabinet and the cabinet for mids and treble are made of birch plywood. The beam you see in the picture is made of solid birch wood.

I think it might be a good idea to hire a carpenter to re-glue the cabinets if necessary . It is important that he does not destroy anything when he takes the housings apart. 

I am only a layman, but why do you think @Knuckthat the housings are no longer firmly glued and that it would be necessary to re-glue them?

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Thank you very much for your kindness!

The tips on soldering are nice, we learnt it at school but long time ago, so first, training on dead / needing repair electronics will be the way.

We'll avoid the fine connection wires as well, but I saw many people were rejunevating their speakers by using new diaphragms so I am quite curious about it as well.

 

Yes and your Khorns wood seems to be a great quality. One of the Heresy speaker is almost fine but another have several mm of space between side pannel and front pannel. Turned out that's why those speakers had internal seals. I have no idea why they didn't reseal them properly at the time but that's what I intend to do this time. 

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10 hours ago, Knuck said:

Thank you very much for your kindness!

The tips on soldering are nice, we learnt it at school but long time ago, so first, training on dead / needing repair electronics will be the way.

We'll avoid the fine connection wires as well, but I saw many people were rejunevating their speakers by using new diaphragms so I am quite curious about it as well.

 

Yes and your Khorns wood seems to be a great quality. One of the Heresy speaker is almost fine but another have several mm of space between side pannel and front pannel. Turned out that's why those speakers had internal seals. I have no idea why they didn't reseal them properly at the time but that's what I intend to do this time. 

I have replaced the diaphragms of the K55V with absolutely original diaphragms from Atlas Sound. I've forgotten where they came from, I remember Malaysia but I'm not sure. I had them from Crites for my LaScala. I'm still looking for a European dealer for the Khorn. It doesn't necessarily need to be replaced but it's a bit better in the lower frequencies because the material can get hardened lver the decades. Some discussion here in older threads pro and con replacement, so not really an urgent must.

 

Please, other members are welcome to say something about the K77. I bought new diaphragms from the Netherlands. I had sent them along when the K77 magnets were energized in Mannheim. After they had installed one of this new diaphragms there, measured and listened to it, they were very, very disappointed. The old first original diaphragms have a much better sound. In Mannheim at the “Lautsprecher Manufaktur” they immediately put the old diaphragms back into the K77. Supposedly these small diaphragms do not age noticeably and sound like they did on the first day. So never replace them if they work.

The ones available today are cheap Chinese scrap. If anyone in the forum has a source for good new diaphragms for K77 please let me know. Just in case a voice coil burns out at some point.

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I think we have an european dealer in France, they even made a special venue for the Jubilee's. Contact Son-video, I think they must be able to put you in touch with them or to handle it for you. I can contact them for you otherwhise.

 

Okay, I won't touch it then but I do wish too for another replacement source of better quality for the people who might need it. I can't wait for Heresy to come back, and am looking at CW 1 or another pair of Heresy...

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6 hours ago, Knuck said:

I think we have an european dealer in France, they even made a special venue for the Jubilee's. Contact Son-video, I think they must be able to put you in touch with them or to handle it for you. I can contact them for you otherwhise.

 

Okay, I won't touch it then but I do wish too for another replacement source of better quality for the people who might need it. I can't wait for Heresy to come back, and am looking at CW 1 or another pair of Heresy...

You can have your K77 remagnetized if you like. your original diaphragms will be carefully removed beforehand. When you say “I won't touch it” I understand it as if I wanted to say that you shouldn't change anything on the K77. But I'm only referring to the original diaphragms, not the remagnetization, which can be very positive.

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Oh yes, I understand that and will remagnetize it. I meant I won't touch it regarding the diaphragm. 

 

So far, Hakko soldering iron is in the ordering block so I think to have the tweeter sent to germany as soon as some sales went smooth.

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