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colterphoto1

explain Bi-wire??

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Well I have returned from Dyer and have a little more information than when I went. The guys at Dyer pretty much stated the same thing as in that article. When I asked them to explain why the same starting point (the amp) and the splitting of the signal does anything better than a single set from a-b, I did receive an answer something like in the above article.

So I answered with oh...so the bass is going to be better and the highs are going to be cleaner...I got a no. For some reason...according to Dyer the Mids are more pronounced when bi-wiring. Don't ask me to explain it, because I can't.

The only thing I walked out of there feeling comfortable with is that I need to bi-wire my speakers and think I am going to try to buy a cable made to specifically do that.

And thats all folks.

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WOW- that ?? generated a load of responses. I can't believe that a company like Klipsch would engineer such a 'benefit' and then not explain better how to use and the audible benefits. Their 'tapered array' in the RC-7's is a magnificent concept and well explained, but I still don't get the bi-wiring concept. Unless the runs from amp to speaker are extraordinarliy long, I can't see how bi-wiring would have much advantage over using a high-quality wire like Monster Cable.

I will contact Klipsch directly (I live in Indianapolis and know Steve and Paul Klipsch personally) and see if they can route me to an engineer who can help us.

Michael

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Hey, colterphoto1, your last post indicated you were contacting Klipsch about bi-wiring. Did you get any insight?

DB

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----------------

On 3/7/2003 8:26:11 AM Audioreality wrote:

Have you e-mailed Klipsch Tech support to ask their reasoning behind this very expensive addition to their core products?

If they are reluctant to reply, you could ask techs at B&W or Paradigm.

They both assumed the related production costs and implemented this modification.

One just never knows the real truth about these things.

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the reasoning-IMHO-is if one speaker co. HAS bi-wiring capability and another does NOT,regardless of the 'benefit',some buyers will concur the speaker WITH that feature is the better speaker.

avman.

p.s.:

i think it is a sneaky plot to sell more wire2.gif

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Klipsch probably includes the bi-wiring capability because some delusional "audiophiles" expect it to be there. It has everything to do with marketing and nothing to do with engineering.

Of course those of us with even a basic understanding of how speakers work know that bi-wiring is, as ole PWK used to put it, bull****.

One would think that if such a basic thing as "bi-wiring" was really beneficial the benefits of such a simple procedure would have been known to the scientists and engineers at WE, RCA, MGM and GE back when they were inventing hi-fidelity. Amazing, is it not, that such a simple thing would get by such Speaker Gods as Hilliard, Olson, Wente, Fletcher, Lansing, Klipsch, Cohen, Walker and such? But be obvious to some garage-based audiophile speaker-builder with a Parts Express catalog?

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My speakers can be TRI-wired due to the built in subs, and there are 3 sets of binding posts and LFE jacks on the back of them, as well as gold "jumpers" in case one only wants to use 1 cable instead of 2 or three.. I notice a difference when I use the LFE jacks and the sub outputs on my Receiver, but when I did some quick experiments on the bi-wireing for mids and highs, I really just came up with more cables--sonically, it didn't seem to make a difference, but that may be due to the fact that the bass frequencies are already routed to the LFE and not through the speaker wires...I never tried bi/tri wireing useing only the speaker cables and not the LFE outputs...

I've actually wondered about this whole "bi-wireing" thing for a while now...thanks for this post!

I'm curious as to other views out there on bi wireing.... Bi-amping obviously makes sense, but bi-wiring...?

my question is this: 2 sets of wire running from the same amp would be sending the same current through 2 wires, instead of one, how does this make a difference in a speaker that doesn't have more than 1 set of binding posts?

more than 1 set of binding posts could make sense cause there could be some sort of isolation of certain frequencies with the way the Mids are designed, vs. the Highs, and in turn it is the speaker's design that allows for said isolation---but if there is only one set of posts, what difference does it make, and how can it make a difference with only one way into the speaker?

I mean you could have 40 wires going into the speaker but they still all connect at one point....

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PAAALEASE DO A TEST AT THE JUNE INDY GATHERING.

This thing has been beat to death.

It would be quick and simple to AB test bi-wire and single and then tally the vote. The audiophiles can give the official report back on what they hear, difference or no difference, YEA or NAY.

Im dying to know.

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Bi-wiring...ok can someone tell me how you get around the fact that even if you run two equal lengths of cable that are connected on one end and split on the other you somehow isolate the woofer circuitry from the mid/tweeter circuitry. With them shorted at the amp they are electrically in the same place...just like when you have the jumper in place. While its true you have a little more conductor inductance, resistivity and inner conductor capacitance in line they are still shorted together so where does the isolation come from?

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----------------

On 4/23/2004 11:30:50 AM TBrennan wrote:

Klipsch probably includes the bi-wiring capability because some delusional "audiophiles" expect it to be there. It has everything to do with marketing and nothing to do with engineering.

Of course those of us with even a basic understanding of how speakers work know that bi-wiring is, as ole PWK used to put it, bull****.

----------------

I am not doubting what you are saying. But I want to bring this up:

If this is true, then why does the Klipsch manual mention that to get the best sound you should bi-wire? I'm confused that PWK would take one stance, yet say another in a manual for the product. I'm referring to my RF3-II booklet that came with the speakers.

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Lance---PWK didn't design your speakers, he was long gone by then.

I doubt that the engineers who did design them really believe the speakers sound better bi-wired. I think that advice is the marketing department speaking, not engineering.

Many audiophiles fall prey to false enthusiasms and audio manufacturers often sigh at these dubious ideas and then resign themselves to the need to humor the ignorant.

Yes, there are actually numbskulls who would pass on an excellent speaker because it lacked bi-wiring capability. So Klipsch spends a coupl'a bucks on terminals with jumpers and they have it covered. Good business sense.

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Yup, nuthin' like another good biwire debate. Great cheap entertainment. Now let's re-visit the "you get better sound if you raise your speaker wires off the floor" debate.2.gif

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Well that proves it then. They must be made in China. Just think about it a minute.

Whenever you order Chinese dont most people order 2 from column A and 2 from column B just to make sure they have all the bases covered? Seeeeeee?

Now wasnt dat simple? We solved 2 mysteries with one answer. Im good at this.

Just call me Inspector Bug-So. Ahhhh! Whee Whee..Wheeeeeeeeee Doggies!

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Last night I had an hour or so before friends would be visiting my house. I decided to try the biwiring. I would like to say I heard an improvement, but then I would be lying. All I got were deep wire cuts on my thumb and forefinger from being stupid and not wearing gloves ;). I did not notice any improvement in sound, but at least I tried. Was fun and made the hour of nothing to do enjoyable.

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Why did Klipsch provide for Bi-wiring their speakers? As has been said, MARKETING!2.gif This is not a slam at Klipsch, they are only providing the customer a requested feature. The prevailing wisdom says anyone who is ANYONE, KNOWS that you are supposed to bi-wire.6.gif YAH RIGHT!! In the article mentioned, the woofer is supposed to self center after say a good bass note, providing a reverse current.3.gif AGAIN YA RIGHT! The woofer is a linier motor. It goes where the amp says to go. No more, no less, if the amp cant control the speaker, you have a sorry excuse for an amp. Bi-wiring is a marketing hoax to sell you more electronics and wire. The signals are the same on BOTH wires ALL the time.

Ok, flame away, I have said this strongly, but really folks think about it, electrically they are the same. The only difference is where in the circuit the crossover is located, to electricity, it is all the same.

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cabl,

You're right. The ONLY advantage to bi-wiring is reduced resistance in the speaker wire. Bi-wiring can be handy if for some reason someone would want to run two 16 ga. wires as opposed to one 12 ga. wire.

The same thing w/ bi-amping, and still using the internal cross-over on the speaker. You could potentially gain some headroom since two amps are now powering the speaker instead of one. But then again, Klipsch speakers are nice and efficient, so this shouldn't be a very big concern to begin with.

John

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This is from another post on the same subject.

The KLF 20 and KLF 30 are equipped with two pairs of input terminals to facilitate a bi-wire or bi-amp hookup. In both cases, seperate speaker cables are used to carry the "HIGH" and "LOW" frequency signals INDEPENDENTLY to each speaker. This results in a reduction in distortion and an increase in clarity and detail.

In a bi-wire hookup, the "HIGH" and "LOW" are connected to the same channel of one power amplifier.

In a bi-amp configuration, the "HIGH" and "LOW" frequency cables are connected to separate amps. This type of hookup can increase the dynamic range of your system because of the potential increase in available power for "HIGH" and "LOW" frequency drivers. It also allows the use of two amps with different tonal qualities to be used for the "HIGH" and "LOW" frequency ranges.

This is out of my KLF 20 manual, it clearly states the highs and lows and carried independantly. Isnt this kinda misleading??

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ez,

Just ask yourself this question: Where are the high and low frequencies being "split"? Unless you have an external cross-over in front of the amps, they are not being split until they get to the cross-over in the speaker.

John

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----------------

On 4/26/2004 6:02:29 PM ez8947 wrote:

This is from another post on the same subject.

The KLF 20 and KLF 30 are equipped with two pairs of input terminals to facilitate a bi-wire or bi-amp hookup. In both cases, seperate speaker cables are used to carry the "HIGH" and "LOW" frequency signals INDEPENDENTLY to each speaker. This results in a reduction in distortion and an increase in clarity and detail.

In a bi-wire hookup, the "HIGH" and "LOW" are connected to the same channel of one power amplifier.

In a bi-amp configuration, the "HIGH" and "LOW" frequency cables are connected to separate amps. This type of hookup can increase the dynamic range of your system because of the potential increase in available power for "HIGH" and "LOW" frequency drivers. It also allows the use of two amps with different tonal qualities to be used for the "HIGH" and "LOW" frequency ranges.

This is out of my KLF 20 manual, it clearly states the highs and lows and carried independantly. Isnt this kinda misleading??

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Yes it is! If you are using the same output terminal on the amp for TWO wires, the signals are EXACTLY THE SAME ON EACH WIRE! If you are using the speaker crossover, it doesn't matter if you disconnect the link at the speaker and run two wires to the speaker or run one larger wire to the speaker and let the connection link stay in place, ELECTRICLY BOTH ARE THE SAME!!3.gif3.gif

If you use a crossover After your pre-amp and BEFORE YOUR AMPS (in a bi amp system), you then have separate signals to the amps and thus separate signals on the speaker wires but regardless of the signal on each wire, if you still have the crossovers in the speakers in place, (physically still there inside the cabinet and connected but you are using the separate connections in the back of the speaker) the speaker crossovers will roll off the highs or lows like they always have regardless of the signal on the wire. You will be able to make the highs or lows louder independent of each other, or the highs may have a different flavor than the lows depending on the amps but the crossovers in the speakers will still alter the signal the same way. In fact, you may LOOSE signal quality by doing this! If the crossover BEFORE your amps have a different cutoff point than the crossovers in the speakers, you could loose the difference between them! For example, if the pre-amp crossover is set LOWER than the crossover in the speaker, there WILL BE A LOSS OF SIGNAL between the two as the crossover for the mid range in the speaker will still roll off the signal at the point it is expecting the woofer to handle!

For a bi-WIRE setup, if both wires come from the SAME terminal on the SAME amp, both signals are the SAME9.gif

Try to think of it like this, If you connect a garden hose to a faucet in the front of your house which has a "y" connector so that you can hook up two hoses and run it to a sprinkler located at the side of the house and you then connect another hose to the second connector, next to the first hose, and run it around the back of the house, and to another sprinkler next to the first one, is the water from the hose from front of the house any different than the water from the hose that goes around the back of the house? NO! They both come from the same water connection! Just as if there was a short piece of hose between the sprinklers and only one hose was used. (the connection link). If something shares the same source, they carry the same product, be it water, electricity or audio signal (which is just a complex electrical signal)!

2.gif

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