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6 hours ago, Edgar said:

I was aware of that, but I don't think that it was otherwise common knowledge. And I've been trying to think of another market where such a ratio also occurs -- selling between 20 and 100 of a company's mainstream product for every one of their premium product. Perhaps Chevrolet sells 100 Malibus for every Corvette? I don't know. But it is a sobering statistic.

Fwiw, If your assumption is true it's probably because of scale. I don't think the Heritage line can complete on a supply/demand basis, although I wish it could. Otoh, I'm just some dude on the internet expressing an unsolicited opinion...

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9 hours ago, Travis In Austin said:

<snip> Heritage sales, for the last 10 years, runs between 1 and 5% of KGI’s total gross sales. 

 

It was 1% in 2016. Think it doubled when they asked Roy to update the Forte (2017) Doubled again with the AK6, AL5, H3, and CW3 updates. But between 1 and 5%. <snip>

Win on Sunday, sell on Monday. On Monday, most people bought the brand that won.

I want a new Ducati Panigale V4 Tricolor (Tricolore), but I only have two Ducati Monsters. History shows that the Monster saved Ducati. While the Ducati 916 was winning races, Ducati sold a lot of Monsters.  

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5 hours ago, Woofers and Tweeters said:

Win on Sunday, sell on Monday. On Monday, most people bought the brand that won.

I want a new Ducati Panigale V4 Tricolor (Tricolore), but I only have two Ducati Monsters. History shows that the Monster saved Ducati. While the Ducati 916 was winning races, Ducati sold a lot of Monsters.  

 

Most startups fail for one of two reasons, first is launching before the technology is fully developed.  The second is assuming a business strategy, successful in an entirely different tech space, can be leverage and applied to another.   

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On 12/27/2024 at 11:54 AM, Deang said:

AK-6 is on Crutchfield for just over $16K. 

 

A pr. of Klipschorns in 1962 were $1644.

 

In today's USD that could be considered a "bargain" presuming that the speaker made today is as well made, using the same materials, as its 1962 equivalent.   That may not be the case.

1962_HIFI.jpg

 

1962_Klipschorn.jpg

 

1962_inflation.JPG

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I hope from the bottom of my heart that Klipsch does not get into such dangerous waters as some well-known competitors at the moment. A medical technology company named Masimo bought the company Sound United. Masimo has absolutely nothing directly to do with audio, hi-fi, etc. Now they are surprised that everything is going down the drain in their new audio division. Like an unloved adopted child. Somehow disconcerting. Why does a company like Masimo buy brands like Marantz, Denon and Bowers & Wilkins? At the moment it looks as if no buyers can be found, and it could be that Bowers & Wilkins, for example, will cease to exist. 

Below in the link a report in German, just translate with Google Translator.

 

There used to be understandable oligopoly developments. At least from the same or related industries. Who beside some sensible deals buys Audio brands today and why is a bit of a mystery to me. Ok, this car stereo story might make sense, but can this field alone allow Klipsch to survive? Of course Klipsch is obviously also very successful in the cheaper segment. Our daughter's boyfriend bought The Fives. I think they sound phenomenal for the price. Be that as it may, hopefully Klipsch will return to more stable ground. Not that it wasn't stable now, but a new owner always has a certain amount of uncertainty at the beginning about which path to take.

 

https://www.heise.de/news/Denon-Marantz-und-B-W-Geschaeftsaufgabe-steht-angeblich-im-Raum-10172658.html

 

There are also hopeful examples. Quad was sold to a Taiwanese investor back in the mid-1990s. I like the brand very much, like Klipsch, Quad has been with me since my early youth. I bought my first used Quad 33 pre amp when I was 16 with vacation jobs, and a 405 power amplifier a little later. 

Quad is still respected and valued by its new owners today. In the meantime, there have been innovative further developments of the electrostats and recently, two months ago, there was a new edition of the old Quad 33/303 retro pre power amps which warms my heart. I like the look also which has reached a place in the Museum of Modern Art in NYC. The English engineers who worked at Quad back in the 90s were able to develop these new devices in England. To this day, a service workshop for all Quad products from all decades is maintained in Huntington, UK, for very fair money. The new products are of a very high quality and have remained affordable. In the meantime, this Taiwanese “International Audio Group” has very successfully revived several reputable British traditional brands, Audiolab, Wharfedale, Mission and others. IAG itself has now passed from father to son. So, it can also go well. Who knows what Bose will do with Mcintosh...

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Even if it is a bit much from me at once, I would like to contribute something to another topic that plays a role in this thread.

In my opinion, Roy's development work has brought the Heritage series back into the limelight, both in the USA and in Germany. This is very good for the enthusiasts who enjoy and appreciate these loudspeakers, it is very important for the people in Hope who are very motivated to develop and build these loudspeakers by hand. A passion!

 

It is also such an important building block for branding. Everyone who buys The Fives emotionally acquires a small piece of a Klipschorn. That is priceless. Even if the Heritage series only accounts for a maximum of 5% of total sales, it is so important for the Klipsch brand's appeal. I hope that the new owners understand that. Even if you could say quite rationally that many buyers of price-conscious Klipsch products should not know the Heritage series, it is, you could say, the collective unconscious that resonates. I'm not saying this as an esotericist but as a brand consultant. I often experience this phenomenon that it is sometimes immaterial brand values that are important. Even if not everyone knows the top models, it is important that they exist. They create desire. Many young people dream of a BMW M3 (in this case everyone is in the know). But because they can't afford it yet, they stick with the brand and buy a smaller engine. Jaguar didn't want to have such an icon as an M3. The middle class only had boring four-cylinder engines. The desire was missing. Nobody wanted these cars from young people. Today, Jaguar is dead and is currently burying itself. What I mean it is really important for the whole brand of Klipsch to keep the Heritage series in business.

 

On the other hand, the Klipsch Heritage series is quite material, it is produced and should be successful in the market within its means. And that, I believe, could continue to be the case. Of course, not many flagships like the HJ are sold, but the Heresy and CW4 are sold a lot more. The price for these speakers still seems fair to me. But it should stay that way. Sometimes new owners go overboard in this respect to the detriment of the brand.

An example, the English sports cars from Morgan, many points of contact with the Heritage series from Klipsch. 800 cars a year handcrafted. Peter Morgan himself used to say that only the owner makes it “his” Morgan. So it was normal that many people installed better springs or shock absorbers etc. It was almost normal, even on new cars. You never had to do that with Klipsch, they were always good from the factory, but this proximity to DIY is comparable, at least with today's older Klipsch speakers. Until 10 years ago, these fantastic Morgan were like time machines, built on a ladder frame of steel with wood and aluminum, relatively affordable. You bought the entry-level model, the 4/4, which in my opinion is almost the best Morgan for various reasons, for a relatively affordable 45000€. And almost no depreciation over many years. In the 70s and 80s you had to wait seven! years for your pre-ordered Morgan until you finally got it.

 

Three or four years ago, the third-generation family business was sold to a major Italian investor “Investindustrial”. For them, Morgan is just a “hobby”. I don't want to go into the pros and cons of the sale, perhaps the family wouldn't have been able to afford the expenses for new vehicle regulations etc. Just my point, the traditional Morgan has been discontinued. There is a new aluminum chassis that Lotus has developed for Morgan. There are only two BMW engines left. And now my point. The cheapest car with a little bit of extra equipment now costs about €90,000 at least, the more powerful car costs from €140,000. The buyers are staying away, the old target group can absolutely no longer afford it. Today, a used car costs only half as much after two years (good for buyers), but the cars are piling up at the dealerships. Peter Morgan's old philosophy of always building less than people want has been lost. Just a warning, a small Heritage Heresy must remain affordable for many people. There are enough examples of new owners wanting to make the “brand” more and more expensive. Then important broader groups of buyers drop out. That shouldn't happen with Klipsch Heritage.

 

Another point that obviously has to do with Klipsch's brand essence. The old speakers were so robust and durable but also somehow a bit “raw”. Both seem to have contributed to the fact that so much of the speakers have either been restored or changed, renewed or “improved” when the speakers are old. The speakers especially the big old ones like Khorn, LS etc have such an “inviting accessibility” for tinkerers and DIY types. It's part of the brand essence. Nobody then or now would dare to modify or repair a Quad electrostatic themselves. Or boutique live style brands like Sonus Faber, hardly anyone would tinker with them. I can well understand that Klipsch wants to move away from this topic of modification with the Heritage series, but there are still so many old loudspeakers, which is proof of quality. Hardly anyone would fiddle with their AK6, but I restored my 1973 Khorns with original parts. It's fate when the new speakers are very similar in essence to the decades old ones. If heritage speakers looked completely different today, they would no longer be heritage speakers, which would also be a shame, but as a company you wouldn't have the issue of competition with products from your own company. It is not much different with Gibson. For this reason, I can understand very well from Klipsch's point of view that the modifications with third-party parts are not desirable to discuss in the Forum. Even if I myself am a supporter of the originality of the old Klipsch speakers and even if some people are misled by modifications, it must be allowed to say that a vintage Klipsch can become a competitor to a new Heritage with manageable effort if someone does it right. But I don't see any danger for Klipsch because there are mostly buyers who want to have something new as their pride and joy if they can afford it. The hobbyists are a totally different target group that should also be appreciated. Some of them can never afford a new Khorn, but they enjoy an old one. Then let them tune it to their personal taste if they want to. Not a threat for the brand. On the contrary, because it makes the brand even livelier and stronger. Here, the past is updated with the joy of the cause. This is very positive emotionally for the Klipsch brand and it should not be ignored or stopped, even if, as I said, this forum is perhaps not the place for these discussions. It is positive and not negative. It is invaluable for the Porsche brand what they are doing in the vintage scene as a manufacturer with their sub-brand Porsche Classic. They know how important that is to the brand as a whole. Klipsch could similarly offer a basic to high-end restoration in Hope for people who can afford different levels, but mostly still cheaper than a brand new one.

Anyway, let's hope for the best. Klipsch knows what they need to do much better than me, who is just a fan of many. I am also confident that the new owners will take a very serious look at Klipsch and not throw the baby out with the bathwater. They will be very aware of what has just happened to B&W, Marantz etc. And they won't want to repeat it with Klipsch.

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23 hours ago, John Warren said:

The second is assuming a business strategy, successful in an entirely different tech space, can be leverage and applied to another.   

 

When they were standalone companies (JBL, AR, Klipsch, Scott, Marantz, McIntosh, etc.) they were run by a small group of engineering fanatics and founders.   They designed and manufactured products they themselves would buy.  That was the business model, it worked.  No Board of Directors, stockholders, or revenue metrics.  If payroll, supplier invoices, rent, mortgages and other expenses were covered, the company survived for another quarter.  

 

Control by a Board of Directors means to design and manufacture products to maximize shareholder value, a significant departure from the business model that made the company an attractive acquisition.  This requires the company name gets leveraged, placed on products that have nothing in common with the founder's vision.  

 

It's not all doom and gloom.  You can still buy a decent stereo tube amp from McIntosh, the MC275 reissue is $7k, not terrible and includes tubes.  JBL Pro still makes the best 15" woofer manufactured, the 2226J and the HPL models are good too.   

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12 hours ago, KT88 said:

Even if it is a bit much from me at once, I would like to contribute something to another topic that plays a role in this thread.

In my opinion, Roy's development work has brought the Heritage series back into the limelight, both in the USA and in Germany. This is very good for the enthusiasts who enjoy and appreciate these loudspeakers, it is very important for the people in Hope who are very motivated to develop and build these loudspeakers by hand. A passion!

 

It is also such an important building block for branding. Everyone who buys The Fives emotionally acquires a small piece of a Klipschorn. That is priceless. Even if the Heritage series only accounts for a maximum of 5% of total sales, it is so important for the Klipsch brand's appeal. I hope that the new owners understand that. Even if you could say quite rationally that many buyers of price-conscious Klipsch products should not know the Heritage series, it is, you could say, the collective unconscious that resonates. I'm not saying this as an esotericist but as a brand consultant. I often experience this phenomenon that it is sometimes immaterial brand values that are important. Even if not everyone knows the top models, it is important that they exist. They create desire. Many young people dream of a BMW M3 (in this case everyone is in the know). But because they can't afford it yet, they stick with the brand and buy a smaller engine. Jaguar didn't want to have such an icon as an M3. The middle class only had boring four-cylinder engines. The desire was missing. Nobody wanted these cars from young people. Today, Jaguar is dead and is currently burying itself. What I mean it is really important for the whole brand of Klipsch to keep the Heritage series in business.

 

On the other hand, the Klipsch Heritage series is quite material, it is produced and should be successful in the market within its means. And that, I believe, could continue to be the case. Of course, not many flagships like the HJ are sold, but the Heresy and CW4 are sold a lot more. The price for these speakers still seems fair to me. But it should stay that way. Sometimes new owners go overboard in this respect to the detriment of the brand.

An example, the English sports cars from Morgan, many points of contact with the Heritage series from Klipsch. 800 cars a year handcrafted. Peter Morgan himself used to say that only the owner makes it “his” Morgan. So it was normal that many people installed better springs or shock absorbers etc. It was almost normal, even on new cars. You never had to do that with Klipsch, they were always good from the factory, but this proximity to DIY is comparable, at least with today's older Klipsch speakers. Until 10 years ago, these fantastic Morgan were like time machines, built on a ladder frame of steel with wood and aluminum, relatively affordable. You bought the entry-level model, the 4/4, which in my opinion is almost the best Morgan for various reasons, for a relatively affordable 45000€. And almost no depreciation over many years. In the 70s and 80s you had to wait seven! years for your pre-ordered Morgan until you finally got it.

 

Three or four years ago, the third-generation family business was sold to a major Italian investor “Investindustrial”. For them, Morgan is just a “hobby”. I don't want to go into the pros and cons of the sale, perhaps the family wouldn't have been able to afford the expenses for new vehicle regulations etc. Just my point, the traditional Morgan has been discontinued. There is a new aluminum chassis that Lotus has developed for Morgan. There are only two BMW engines left. And now my point. The cheapest car with a little bit of extra equipment now costs about €90,000 at least, the more powerful car costs from €140,000. The buyers are staying away, the old target group can absolutely no longer afford it. Today, a used car costs only half as much after two years (good for buyers), but the cars are piling up at the dealerships. Peter Morgan's old philosophy of always building less than people want has been lost. Just a warning, a small Heritage Heresy must remain affordable for many people. There are enough examples of new owners wanting to make the “brand” more and more expensive. Then important broader groups of buyers drop out. That shouldn't happen with Klipsch Heritage.

 

Another point that obviously has to do with Klipsch's brand essence. The old speakers were so robust and durable but also somehow a bit “raw”. Both seem to have contributed to the fact that so much of the speakers have either been restored or changed, renewed or “improved” when the speakers are old. The speakers especially the big old ones like Khorn, LS etc have such an “inviting accessibility” for tinkerers and DIY types. It's part of the brand essence. Nobody then or now would dare to modify or repair a Quad electrostatic themselves. Or boutique live style brands like Sonus Faber, hardly anyone would tinker with them. I can well understand that Klipsch wants to move away from this topic of modification with the Heritage series, but there are still so many old loudspeakers, which is proof of quality. Hardly anyone would fiddle with their AK6, but I restored my 1973 Khorns with original parts. It's fate when the new speakers are very similar in essence to the decades old ones. If heritage speakers looked completely different today, they would no longer be heritage speakers, which would also be a shame, but as a company you wouldn't have the issue of competition with products from your own company. It is not much different with Gibson. For this reason, I can understand very well from Klipsch's point of view that the modifications with third-party parts are not desirable to discuss in the Forum. Even if I myself am a supporter of the originality of the old Klipsch speakers and even if some people are misled by modifications, it must be allowed to say that a vintage Klipsch can become a competitor to a new Heritage with manageable effort if someone does it right. But I don't see any danger for Klipsch because there are mostly buyers who want to have something new as their pride and joy if they can afford it. The hobbyists are a totally different target group that should also be appreciated. Some of them can never afford a new Khorn, but they enjoy an old one. Then let them tune it to their personal taste if they want to. Not a threat for the brand. On the contrary, because it makes the brand even livelier and stronger. Here, the past is updated with the joy of the cause. This is very positive emotionally for the Klipsch brand and it should not be ignored or stopped, even if, as I said, this forum is perhaps not the place for these discussions. It is positive and not negative. It is invaluable for the Porsche brand what they are doing in the vintage scene as a manufacturer with their sub-brand Porsche Classic. They know how important that is to the brand as a whole. Klipsch could similarly offer a basic to high-end restoration in Hope for people who can afford different levels, but mostly still cheaper than a brand new one.

Anyway, let's hope for the best. Klipsch knows what they need to do much better than me, who is just a fan of many. I am also confident that the new owners will take a very serious look at Klipsch and not throw the baby out with the bathwater. They will be very aware of what has just happened to B&W, Marantz etc. And they won't want to repeat it with Klipsch.

Agree with much of what was said here.  Very well put.

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On 12/21/2024 at 5:27 PM, Trey Cannon said:

They took me out in the last round...No longer an employee. I sure feel for the folks still there. 

 

I re-activated my account after years and years (maybe late 2000's was the last time I was here). Just to say, Trey, I have very fond memories of the old Klipsch board and hospitality and "forum appreciation day" from the 2006 or so timeframe down in Indy. It is sad news indeed that you were let go. Sounds like you had a good run but what a gut punch. 

 

I still love Klipsch and have the old 1977 CW's and KHorns. I remember getting the drivers from the KHorns tested down at Indy in maybe 2006 or so, and meeting the guy who put them together in 1977 (HDRBuilder, or something like that). Since the late 2000's my main hobby has switched to guitars and amps. Being a brand boi, I really got into Mesa Boogies and lo and behold they were recently bought by corporate Gibson. Mesa's founder Randall Smith seemed to have a lot of the same philosophies as Paul W. Klipsch, in my opinion and their products reflected that. 

 

Why am I back here? I googled to see what the latest was with Klipsch as Mesa's founder recently left and they are now owned by Gibson. I guess I was seeing what the future may hold for Mesa Boogie since Klipsch was bought/sold etc more than a decade ago, maybe 15+ years ago. 

 

I'm very glad to see that the Heritage line is still around. 

 

Anyway, maybe I'll get back in the two channel rabbit hole here someday. I still have tubes and horns for music listening but haven't changed anything since 2008 or so. 

 

 

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