Shake value & price/performance ratio

[Colin]

If you examine the shake value ratings versus the price in the excellent article http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_8_4/subwoofers-12-2001.html (Subwoofers Under the Christmas Tree - December, 2001 by Brian Weatherhead), you quickly see that, as the Stones rock classic says, you cant always get what you want.

Weatherheads shake value shows how much subwoofer output you get at 20Hz. Twenty Hertz is the bottom of the human audible, but not sensory, frequency range, at loud sound pressure levels. His shake values start at the 70dB level at 20Hz. Each additional 10dB (doubling of SPL) of output at 20Hz is another shake value point.

The lowly KSW-15 sub is a modest 1.7 shake points. The mighty Klipsch RSW-15 is 2.4, the grand daddy Velodyne HGS-18 is 3.1, while the SVS CS-Ultra tubes are incredible 3.9 shake points. The $28,000 Krell Master Reference subwoofer delivers an amazing 120dB at 20Hz, so its shake value is a fantastic 6 points.

Dividing the sub price by its shake value points however, reveals quite an different story. Here, you see the other verse of the song; if you try sometimes, you get want you need. The subs retail price, divided by Weatherheads shake value, shows the price/performance ratio for subwoofers. It shows how much bang you get for your buck.

The lowly KSW-15 sub is a bargain $440 for each shake point. You get a lot of output, at 20Hz - though most of its output is higher, 60Hz - for relatively less money than any other sub in this comparison. The SVS CS-Ultra tubes are the next best price/performers, at $588 per point of performance. A glance at the frequency response chart shows that you get more low bass output from these models than any other sub compared here. The mighty Klipsch RSW-15 is third: $750 for their price/shake value ratio. Their chart shows that you get more punchy mid-bass than the others. While grand daddy Velodyne HGS-18 is $866 for each 10dB of output at 20Hz, it is cheap compared to the Krell. The Velodyne chart shows it is a very good across-the-board performer.

The retail price of the monster rumble chest makes each point of its performance cost a whopping $4,666! More than ten times more expensive for each deep bass rumble than a modest Klipsch KSW sub.

I started with a clearance KSW200 (12) for $250 and I was also very impressed with its value, before adding the smaller, deeper, punchier, but ill-fated Klispch LF10. The KSW gave a lot of mid-bass output for the money. That is fine for many applications in small rooms.

Many loudspeakers, including the wonderful Classic Audio Reproductions Cinema Ensembles (http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0503/classicaudio.htm) and the Klipsch classic Fortes require subwoofer support below 50Hz. If you seek accurate and flat frequency response down into the deep bass regions, that is what many tweaking audiophiles need in a sub; the most output they can get below 50Hz, for the least amount of money.

If you look at the frequency response chart, you will see the most output below 50Hz is from the SVS CS-Ultra tubes, followed by the copper-cone Klipsch RSW-15. Of the two, the big SVS tubes are the better value. They give more output for less money.

What you dont want though, for flat and deep accuracy, is lots of output above 50Hz - that would intrude on your loudspeakers mid-bass and color the mid-range. Excess output in that area is boomy, mushy and indistinct; it muddies the sound. For that, you need a sub which falls away quickly in its mid and upper-bass response. Going back to the chart, the only loudspeaker which does that is the lowly Klipsch KSW-15. Yet, this sub has most of its output at 56Hz (on my KSW200, the frequency response chart peaks at 60Hz).

For the musical punch of mid-bass, which is more noticeable and possibly more enjoyable than merely accurate deep bass, you want lots of push. The greatest output in this area is the grand daddy Velodyne HGS-18, followed by the better value (shake value/price) of the Klipsch RSW-15.

The RSW is number two for deepest output and number two for most mid-bass output too. In this limited subwoofer comparison, the Klipsch RSW-15 is the only sub to score well on both lists.

[LoLo]

huh?

[Dustin B]

I'd really like to see the Krell MRS hit 120dB at 20hz with less than 10%THD in a 2500-3000ft^3 room with the sub 12-16ft from the listening position. Simply put, it won't happen. Infact I really doubt it could do that much more than a pair of Ultras could at 20hz.

[TheEAR]

Dusty Dusty

You can doubt all you want,fact is the Krell MRS is the most powerful compact subwoofer on the planet.Nothing in its size class touches the MRS.Nothing

If Dan wanted to build a sub much more powerful then the VS B4-Plus I have zero doubt he could design and build a quad woofer sub using extreme versions of the Tumult and a 16KW Krell amp based on the MRA.

I have very little doubt the MRS outperforms the two Ultra or SS subs from 20Hz up.It moves more air

The twin TC Sounds 15" woofers powered by the 2600W RMS Krell amp(better then any Samson or Goofy amp out there)best dual TV12 woofers powered by any amp most SVS buyers will be able to buy.

Like it or not the MRS and MRA are not designed to compete against DIY and are not vlaue minded,what they represent is a showcase of technology for Krell.The MRS is one impressive compact sub and the MRA by far the best ultra high power amp on the planet(Mark Levinson and Pass best large amps pale in comparison).

being a Krell fanatic and a proud Krell owner I know Krell does not BS customers.All Krell amps surpass the advertised specs,they dont cut on quality and performance.

Now since you like to compare pairs of subs lets compare dual MRS subs to anything,I would very much doubt anyone on these forums would be able to say dual B4-Plus subs play louder then dual MRS subs.Before either reached its limits the ears of those in the room would crap out from extreme SPL overload.

Lets just say SVS is a much much much(did I say MUCH?)better value.

[prodj101]

hmmm, 2 svs vs 2 krell? umm, what the hell happend to the other 50 grand? with that you could buy so many SVS's and it would make the krell seem like a worthless waste of time. what do you mean it wasn't designed to compete with DIY? I thought this was supposed to be the best subwoofer on the planet? ok, and for the compact part, I'm sure you could figure something out that would equal it using tumult drivers or something. I'm not saying the krell isn't any good, because it is extraordinary, but 30 grand? come on, I'd take the SVS any day. and if I HAD to decide between a super sub, I would take the avantgarde's, and get 4 of them and stack them all up like they do on their website

[Dustin B]

Ear, you're forgetting about the allignment. The Ultra is a bass reflex allignment tuned to 20hz. The MRS is sealed. Doesn't matter how great you think the MRS amp is, a watt is a watt when it comes to spl at 20hz (and I really doubt you could tell the difference between a Crown K2 or the Krell amp powering an MRS).

I'd believe the MRS could do 120dB at 20hz in a small concrete bunker measured at less than a meter, going by what a Tumult models as capable of anyways.

[easylistener]

Ear just sayed the the svs is an incredible value. Krell makes some great stuff and a expensive sub will bet a dual svs sub, and it should.

[TheEAR]

"what do you mean it wasn't designed to compete with DIY?"

DIY gives you maximum value for your dollar,and all know even SVS as great value as it is has not much of a chance against DIY(well done)on a performance dollar base.

At 30 grand I agree the Krell is a poor performer if you consider how many Tumults and Bryston 14B amps you could buy and design a doom's day sub for less.And a Bryston 14B is not the most watts per dollar.This is the DIY thinking.

Anyone who buys a Krell probably does not give a damn how much dB's he can get for a fraction of the price.

When you buy a Porsche GT or a Bugatti Veyron you dont buy the most horsepower per dollar,you buy an exclusive product and style.A crude Mustang Cobra with a few mods has huge horsepower for a small fraction of the price.Again DIY thinking

[Fish]

Colin,great points,that's why the rsw 15 is my sub of choice.

[TheEAR]

"Doesn't matter how great you think the MRS amp is"

LOL

I dont think it is great,it IS THE BEST integrated amplifier found in a powered sub.The K2 is not even in the same league.

And the K2 is NOT an integrated amp,its a stand alone power amp.

Anyone who doubts the superiority of a Krell amp must be smoking weed and dreaming in color eyes wide open.

In any case I said it clearly the MRS is not a great value and was not designed to compete against DIY,as the output per dollar could not be matched with a design like the MRS.The MRS is a showcase of small and powerful,superb cabinet quality and a custom integrated amp no other powered sub matches(and prove me wrong here).

[jstanton8]

Doomsday sub...hahaha

[michael hurd]

The Ears: There simply ain't no replacement for displacement.... period. End of story. What dustin was referring to was the displacement of the krell master reference subwoofer. Two 15" subs in a sealed enclosure. In case you haven't noticed, every time you halve the frequency, to produce the same spl, you need 4 times the excursion. I don't care if you put 200,000 watts to the mrs, you will not produce as much low frequency spl's as a comparable ported or pr assisted subwoofer tuned that low. At the tuning frequency, the active driver's excursion is low and most of the work is done by the port or pr. With a sealed system, excursion goes through the roof, until the electrical xmax is reached. At that point, you can pump as much current as you like through the voice coil, but it ain't gonna do any better.

[TheEAR]

"There simply ain't no replacement for displacement.... period."

NOOOOO I did not know this DOH

Did I say a MRS would ouperform the B4-Plus? NO

Stop making atempts to teach me about subs,I did not start in this hobby last night and own(ed)many many subs from small to large.And DIY is not alien to me

[Colin]

The point was not the outrageous price of ultimate performance in the high money is no object- end of things. The point was that using the shake value of subwoofers versus their price, plebian audiophiles can see how much deep bass output they get for their money. The second point was that for either deep bass or musical upper bass categories, only the Klipsch RSW-15 comes off as second in both.

At $28,000 a pop, the Krell monster deep-bass sub is NOT the family sedan. It should be as exemplary as a yellow Lamborghini. It should excel like Michael Jordan or Tiger Woods. Most of us are out of the Krell league. It is beyond our experience. Thankfully, deep bass sub-woofers at the $1,500 price point do much of the same work of the monster sub at a fraction of the price. Compared to Krell monster woofer chest, the typical top-of-the-line deep-bass sub-woofer appears to be an enormous bargain. In fact, I think the reviewer kept both the SVS tubes and the punchy RSW. That is a combination I would like to hear.

Perhaps the $100K Nearfield Pipedreams, with their matching subwoofers the size of oil drums, or the $70K Martin-Logan Statements, with their towers of woofer power can offer something to compete with the Krell monster chest. I dont know. I heard wonderful and realistic bass guitar from all three of them. I only heard one terrific action movie, U-571, on one of them. With the Krell monster woofer chest, the depth charge bombing of the submarine was incredible. In my opinion, the Krell sets the unlimited expense bar for subwoofers to hurdle.

[Scipio80]

Hmm... maybe I missed the point...

[TheEAR]

Colin,

No doubt the very best and exclusive cost is out of proportion with performance here.What does impress me about the MRS is the overall product not just its massive output.Its a compact sub with serious(by any standard)output.Any technophile/audiophile has to drool over the MRS

"I think the reviewer kept both the SVS tubes and the punchy RSW. That is a combination I would like to hear."

Here I know exactly why use RSW subs with depth dwellers like the SVS or Sunfires.I use RSW subs with Sunfire with awesome results.You have both the punch and the deep bass quaking power.Amazing experience.

Even with Revel,Velo and Aerial in a larger room used as one I know I can get more,more performance.This is why SVS is next

One day maybe I will reach sub bass nirvana.Who knows

The ideal sub would be capable of under 0.1% THD from 12-80Hz and a 120dB output across its range.No less No coloration,no mechanical noise(plagues all subs more or less).

[prodj101]

build a bass horn in your floor